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Featured no hell

Discussion in 'Monotheism' started by syo, May 9, 2018.

  1. Samantha Rinne

    Samantha Rinne Resident Genderfluid Writer/Artist

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    The people who think otherwise are not real Christians. They are people whose Christianity comes from paintings, having not wanted to read a 1200 to sometimes as many as 3000 page work.

    The Bible uses Sheol, which is not the same thing.
    The Bible uses Hades, which is not the same thing.
    The Bible uses outer darkness, which is not the same thing.

    Sheol refers to the land of death in general. Abraham and many of the early leaders went to Sheol.
    Hades refers to a rather Greek conception of Afterlife. Otherwise, it is synonymous with Sheol. Sheol is simply afterlife. It is not two separate places, but one place. This is consistent with what Spirit Science teaches in its Astral Projection video. It's a monistic Afterlife.



    The outer darkness refers to becoming distant from the presence of Jesus. But it is a conditional thing, not a permanent thing. Jesus uses the analogy of being invited to a wedding. Are there no days after the wedding? No other chances ever to see the bride and groom again? The reason you are in the outer darkness is because you put yourself there.

    A loving God would not sentence you away from his presence for eternity. Not for a lake of fire, not in an empty darkness, nothing. It's only when you try to be alone that you think you are cut off. In fact, Romans 8:35-39 makes it clear that Hell is not only unbiblical but impossible.

    Bad times in Sheol only happen because we do not understand that Christ can be there for us at any time or trouble. This changes the moment we see Jesus again, just as having a boring day at work is no longer the case once you are able to hang out with your girlfriend.
     
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  2. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    You know, I agree with you that the teaching that God is "a sadistic ruler that sends people to torment [in] hell" should stop. Personally, though, I find the notion that He would annihilate them to be just as abhorrent. So, I don't think that idea should be taught either. On second thought, though, I guess everybody has the right to teach what they genuinely believe. It's just up to us to choose wisely what voice we're going to follow.
     
  3. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    It may be an integral part of Christian doctrine today, but I don't believe it was an integral part of the doctrine Jesus Christ himself taught.
     
  4. Samantha Rinne

    Samantha Rinne Resident Genderfluid Writer/Artist

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    What if, by "annihilating" we meant "destroying their sense of self and their body and sending a blank soul back into the world"? Does this sound familiar? It should. This is rebirth, discussed in Buddhism. There is nothing left, as though the soul was destroyed in a lake of fire, and yet someone like us lives again.

    You'd be right. People take the story of the rich man and Lazarus wrong.

    Yet Paul and the other writers of the letters do not teach a theology of Hell. The lake of fire is mentioned in Revelation, but again, this could refer to a sort of snuffing of the current self. The idea of a loving God is in direct contradiction to basically anything about some kind of eternal punishment.

    In no place does it say that the rich man will be punished forever. He is being punished. Why is he being punished? So that people understand the importance of helping other people get to a better state. This is why he wanted to send Lazarus to tell his brothers, to save them from screwing their lives up also.
    Your afterlife is subjective, it reflects your karma and emotional state. But it is subject to change. This is why the rich man was able to see Lazarus, they were in the same space, but there was a gulf. Just as there was a gulf of wealth between him and Lazarus (though strangely, he knew Lazarus's name) in life.

    There is also a backhanded comment

    Yes, this is (wrongly) used as support for Heaven and Hell as two different places. But it's more like being in the same house on a different floor.

    I'd strongly recommend people believing in a hard view of Hell watch season 5 or so of Once Upon A Time, beginning about episode 11. It's not really as cut-and-dry as people think.
     
    #44 Samantha Rinne, May 9, 2018
    Last edited: May 9, 2018
  5. SalixIncendium

    SalixIncendium अहं ब्रह्मास्मि
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    Assuming you believe in Hell, who, in your opinion, makes the determination whether one goes to Heaven or Hell?
     
  6. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    I guess I'm not following you. If the soul is destroyed, how can "someone like us" live again? Maybe it's that we're using the word "soul" differently. I suspect that if we were each to try to define the word, that would be the case.
     
  7. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Subway Stalinist
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    Doesn't this argument apply to anyone? Your argument for why it was good for God to let a pedophile abuse children for 30 years would work just as well for why it was good that the police didn't arrest him over that time.

    If God knows best, shouldn't we take our cues from God? If a police officer is on the trail of a serial killer, should he say to himself, "if God hasn't stopped him yet, then maybe the murders are part of God's plan. How am I to know what good might come from whatever murders he's going to commit next? I should let go and let God. If anything truly contrary to God's plan were to happen, God would stop it"?
     
  8. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Subway Stalinist
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    Yes, the New Testament is pro-slavery.
     
  9. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Well, I should probably start by pointing out that I am a Mormon, so my answer is going to be in line with Mormon teachings. We believe that when a person's life-giving spirit leaves his body, the body dies but the spirit continues to exist. It does not immediately go to either Heaven or Hell, but to a kind of intermediate realm where it will reside as a cognizant entity until the final judgment, when it will return to the body it left at death, except that this body will be made perfect and immortal. Meanwhile, the spirits of the dead will be in a state of either rest or torment. These states are known in the Bible as Paradise and the Spirit Prison or Hell. We don't see this Hell as a lake of fire where the torment is physical. Rather, we believe that the unrepentant wicked will experience emotional and spiritual torment for the way they led their lives. That is what we see as Hell. But we see it only as a temporary state for the vast, vast majority of people who have ever lived, as we believe even the spirits in Hell may and will repent and accept Christ as their Savior and be granted entrance to Heaven at the final judgment.
     
  10. InChrist

    InChrist Free4ever

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    I'm not saying at all that God wanted those children ( or the Holocaust Jews or anyone) to be harmed, that it was His plan, or a good thing in anyway whatsoever. What I believe is included in God's plan is that each person is given freedom of choice and sadly this too often involves self-centered, evil choices which harm others. Nevertheless, God sees the big picture and works through all human choices and actions, whether good or evil, for the perfect eternal outcome. Every person will be held accountable.
     
  11. InChrist

    InChrist Free4ever

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    No, it doesn't work that way, simply because humans are not God. Humans and/or police officers must follow laws, do their jobs and choose to do what is right with the information they have.
     
  12. SalixIncendium

    SalixIncendium अहं ब्रह्मास्मि
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    Thanks for taking the time to explain your beliefs. But you really didn't answer my question...
     
  13. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Sorry about that. I'd say God does, but with one caveat. I believe He genuinely wants all of us back in His presence, and will give us every conceivable opportunity (for many, this will be after death as they await the resurrection) to accept the sacrifice Jesus Christ made on their behalf. Ultimately, almost all will, some more grudgingly than others, though. ;) The only ones who will end up eternally separated from God are the ones who, in the end, essentially stand before Him and say, "I know who you are and I want nothing to do with you. I would rather spend eternity far away from you than in your presence." They'll get their wish, as God won't force anyone into complying with His desires.
     
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  14. QuestioningMind

    QuestioningMind Well-Known Member

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    I'm sorry, but if God COULD give a serial child killer a heart attack before they kill an additional 18 kids and chooses not to, then clearly God DOES want those additional children to die. You claim that He wants them to die because of some 'big picture'. If God's big picture requires the death of those children and God wants the big picture to come to pass then clearly God DOES want those children dead. And if that's the case then God also WANTS the serial killer to behave in the cruel and immoral manner in which he does. After all, if the killer suddenly changed heart after killing only 2 of the 20 children and God's big picture REQUIRES that all 20 children die in such a horrible manner, then by ignoring his desire to kill those additional children he would somehow thwart God's plan for the big picture.
     
  15. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    Hell just means eternal seperation from god. The details depend on denomination and who you speak to. They all have one thing in common: you will no longer be in god's presence. Roman Catholics have purgatory, but the concepts the same based on the type of sin if youre already been baptized.
     
  16. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    Can we rephrase it as:

    Hey god. I know you offered me perfect health, be with family, and a 401K plan, but I rather live with this one leg, with a hole in my heart given my infant died, and live off five dollars a week because I love others more when I understand suffering and be comfortable with death than I do trying to live as if life were secured when in my experience that Isnt the truth.

    Living life from the perspective of the certainty of death than hope and have faith in the uncertainity of life.
     
  17. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    Most say the soul is distroyed because of wickness. He says the wickness is from the soul. Since hell is eternal seperation from god, its your soul thats seperated.

    As for the wickness, its generally seen thats why you are tempted to sin either because your first parents did and/or you developed inherited sin and cant help but to sin.

    He holds you accountable for not taking the medication even when you found a cure he couldnt give you. Then say you have free will to choose his cure and since you refused, he is jeleous and gets mad so he gives an ultitimatum or blames you for not chosing his cure.

    Ive been on RF too long. We can make a whole book talking for god. (Good title: Talking for god)
     
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  18. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Uhhh. I'm not sure I follow you. Truly, only life is certain. Nothing following death is. But for those of us who believe in a life after this one, and realize that this life is just a tiny speck when compared with eternity, try to make the best of the present while not giving up on the idea of a much better future.
     
  19. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Subway Stalinist
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    But part of "the information they have" is that God didn't see fit to stop the rapist/murderer/thief/whatnot. Apparently, it aligns with God's plan. Who are we to second-guess God, right?
     
  20. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    It was a poor attempt of seeing it differently.

    I see only death as certain; life is not. We see people live one day and though healthy die the next. I almost got hit by two cars by inches but then someone who has no illness nor crossing the wrong street dies the next day. I honestly see it as taking life for granted.

    If I said to god, "hey, I know you offer me eternal life, family, and good means of living but I rather live how I am now because through my suffering and Knowledge of death, I live a purposeful life" and say, "I cant see that in what you give...."

    Id see that as coming to god and saying I truely found purpose elsewhere, and thats my honest approach.

    Why would god see it as a disadvantage for me to go away from him if it were in the best interest of my wellbeing and not just his? (Edit)
     
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