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Featured "No evidence of God" = Is a bad argument against God

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Starlight, May 17, 2022.

  1. Starlight

    Starlight Well-Known Member

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    This life is a test from God. This life is like a school. That is the reason God is hiding. Because if God showed himself to all humans then this life would not have been a test anymore.

    "No evidence of God" is because of this a bad argument against God.

    I believe in God without evidence because God is hiding on purpose.

    This is my opinion.

    Any thoughts?
     
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  2. viole

    viole Ontological Naturalist
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    Sure, in the same way no evidence of Superman is a bad argument against Superman, I guess.

    correct?

    so, why is that a test? Many people died before they could even take the test. So, where are they now?

    ciao

    - viole
     
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  3. Estro Felino

    Estro Felino Believer in free will
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    We have zero evidence of the aliens' existence.
    This does not mean they do not exist.
    Very good point.
     
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  4. Bathos Logos

    Bathos Logos Member

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    I feel that when someone states that there is "no evidence for God" or "no good evidence for God", this isn't really an argument against God, per se. It is more an argument for not wasting one's time nurturing or fostering a belief in such a thing. That is, at least, what I would argue.

    Once I determined that you have very poor evidence for your claims (which I am very sure you do), I would take any claims you have about "judgment from God" being in my future, or "bad things" happening to me because I don't believe, or claims that I'll "end up in hell" with a grain of salt. Those things are pointless things to be worried about when God's existence has not even been properly demonstrated or evidenced.

    For you to simply assume that I should take your word for it (or anyone's word for it, for that matter), when there is little to no evidence to even support the claims is downright preposterous.
     
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  5. Nakosis

    Nakosis Time Efficient Lollygagger
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    Not a good argument for God either.
    So when you come up with a good argument for God, we can talk about it.
     
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  6. mikkel_the_dane

    mikkel_the_dane Shadow Wolf's Aspie sibling

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    I have another opinion. Now I accept that you have your opinion and I hope you accept that I have mine. :)
     
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  7. Yazata

    Yazata Active Member

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    True.

    One defect is that "argument against God" is way too vague. Is it supposed to be an argument against God's existence? (That conclusion wouldn't seem to follow and many atheists today insist that isn't what they are claiming.) An argument that other people shouldn't believe in God? (They would have the burden of arguing that case.) A reason why they themselves don't believe? (It might be an accurate account of that.)

    But more fundamentally, I think that the initial premise is very likely defective. In other words, the proposition 'There is no evidence for the existence of God' is arguably false.

    There is no end of religious experience. There are (purported) revelations and (purported) miracles. And one could certainly argue (and many natural theologians have) that the existence of the universe and the order that it displays is itself evidence of God.

    Obviously atheists can and do argue against all that. But that leaves them arguing less that there is no evidence than that there is no evidence that they are willing to accept. Which is indisputable but largely unconvincing to theists.

    That's certainly one way of looking it it. It also has the additional advantage of providing a possible answer to the problem of evil. That's one reason why I like it.

    The problem for me (I'm not really a theist) is that while it provides somebody who is already a theist not only with a reason for God's 'hiddenness' but also a reason for the pain and suffering that we perceive in the world (to challenge and test us, and to give meaning to virtues like courage and compassion), it still doesn't provide any reason for those of us who aren't theists to believe that God exists.
     
    #7 Yazata, May 17, 2022
    Last edited: May 17, 2022
  8. Sgt. Pepper

    Sgt. Pepper RF's resident Beatlemaniac. ☮ and ❤

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    If life is a test from the God of the Bible, then I'm more thoroughly convinced that this God is a sadistic, psychopathic, bloodthirsty, genocidal maniac who isn't worthy of anyone's reverence, respect, or worship, least of all, mine. I was severely abused (physically, psychologically, and sexually) at home and bullied and harassed in school while I was growing up. Why didn't God answer my prayers to stop all the abuse and bullying? Was he testing me? What kind of God would allow innocent children to be abused and mistreated like that? Was he testing these children? What kind of God would allow 6 million of his own "chosen people" to be gassed to death by the Nazis? Was he testing these Jews? Is testing humanity the reason why God creates evil, disasters, and calamities (Isaiah 45:7)?
     
    #8 Sgt. Pepper, May 17, 2022
    Last edited: May 17, 2022
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  9. Estro Felino

    Estro Felino Believer in free will
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    If God had power, he could prevent people from killing.
     
  10. Evangelicalhumanist

    Evangelicalhumanist "Truth" isn't a thing...
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    Doesn't make any sense to me. A whole universe created just so that people could be born, tested (for what?), and either turned into angels or fuel for hell-fire. Not much of a plan for an Omnibenevolent deity, I must say. In fact, I'd call it downright dumb.
    Based on my first point, maybe God is hiding because He's ashamed of coming up with such a silly plan.
     
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  11. Sgt. Pepper

    Sgt. Pepper RF's resident Beatlemaniac. ☮ and ❤

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    According to the Bible, God is omniscient (Psalm 139:1-6; Isaiah 46:9-10; 1 John 3:20), omnipotent (Psalm 147:5; Job 42:2; Daniel 2:21), and omnipresent (Psalm 139:7-10; Isaiah 40:12; Colossians 1:17). If the Bible is accurate, then God has the infinite power to prevent people from killing each other. If God has infinite power (omnipotent), infinite knowledge and wisdom (omniscient), and he is present everywhere simultaneously (omnipresent), then he had foreknowledge that his creation, humanity, would fall into moral corruption and rebel against him, and yet he allowed it all to happen. Not only that, but God creates evil, disasters, and calamities (Isaiah 45:7), and he creates some people to be wicked (Proverbs 16:4). It's obvious from these two verses that God deliberately inflicts pain and suffering on humanity. Why would a loving, merciful God do that? Is that a heavenly father who loves humanity and wants to save it? And before I'm accused of misunderstanding these verses and taking them out of context, allow me to demonstrate my point.

    Isaiah 45:7

    KJV: "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things."

    Evil:
    1. Morally bad or wrong; wicked, 2. Causing ruin, injury, or pain; harmful, 3. Characterized by or indicating misfortune; ominous.

    NIV: "I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things."

    Disaster:
    1. An occurrence causing widespread destruction and distress; a catastrophe; 2. A grave misfortune, and 3. A total failure.

    ESV: "I form light and create darkness; I make well-being and create calamity; I am the LORD, who does all these things."

    Calamity: 1. An event that brings terrible loss, lasting distress, or severe affliction; a disaster, 2. Dire distress resulting from loss or tragedy; 3. Any great misfortune or cause of misery; in general, any event or disaster which produces extensive evils, as loss of crops, earthquakes, etc., but also applied to any misfortune which brings great distress on a person; misfortune; distress; adversity.

    Proverbs 16:4

    KJV: "The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil."

    NIV: "The LORD works out everything to its proper end— even the wicked for a day of disaster."

    ESV: "The LORD has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble."

    Wicked: 1. evil or immoral; 2. maliciously or mischievously playful; 3. severe and distressing.
     
    #11 Sgt. Pepper, May 17, 2022
    Last edited: May 17, 2022
  12. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

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    I wish you a wonderful Spiritual Journey, and may God Bless you with all what you need

    I 100% agree. My Master even explicitly told us this, and it makes sense to me. What is the challenge if the university Teacher whispers the answers in our ear while doing our exams to get a degree in a university. It almost seems to me that all Atheists never got a degree, because they all expect the Teacher "God" to hand it over to them for "free", well free it is, but you need to do the hard work yourself.

    I know other reasons why this is a bad argument against God. One would be "science is below the mind, whereas spirituality is above and beyond the mind", hence those waiting to be given scientific evidence will never succeed on the spiritual path.

    I started with faith without evidence, but while doing severe sadhana the divine has been generous to provide what I call "spiritual evidence". Spiritual evidence is more appropriate for Spiritual matters
     
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  13. MikeF

    MikeF Proponent of RAEism
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    IMO

    How do you distinguish between an entity that is hiding on purpose in order to test us without interference, from one that does not interact because it no longer cares or is interested in what occurs, or having once been alive or existed has subsequently ceased to exist or has died in some fashion?

    Each of these could explain the absence of the entity you describe.
     
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  14. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    God is both hidden and manifest. His full manifestation that no can deny will be on the day of judgment. That is the day of truth. Till then, he isn't overly explicit in manifesting himself. However, hide too much and no one can know he exists.

    Imam Zainal Abideen (a) says "And I know you do not veil yourself from creation except their actions are for other then You".

    On the day of judgment while God and his truth is manifest, disbelievers can't see his glory and beauty, because that takes vision from love.

    Love in this world is the most powerful tool and if you see God by it, you will not be harmed by the day of judgment.

    The Quran is a proof of God and Mohammad (s) and his successors (a). However, miracles as in the physical type, are not longer present while much of Quran is on reasoning why such miracles are proofs.

    Since Imam Mahdi (a) became hidden, God's hiddenness has amplified and time has made miracles disbelieved in or their historical nature is doubted and they no longer are evidence to the public.

    God always show miracles and signs to those who are sure and turn to him often, and so there is a Guide (Imam Mahdi (a)) who can show such signs and prove the truth beyond doubt, but he is not in public.

    So while before you can go to a figure like Moses (a) or Jesus (a) and they do miracles, now, you have to search and turn to God, and perhaps God will guide by the hands of the Imam (A) of time and show you miracles.

    If you act for God - even the highest unseen signs where you ascend to the heavens and see lights of God in form of the holy household of the reminder of the time, will open up.

    If you seek the world, and don't search out God and his signs, you will forget not only God but your own soul, and become oblivious in darkness from the truth.

    The only reason miracles are not in the open now, is because their performers and such signs were opposed and denied by former generations.

    Had they been accepted, they would still be in the open.
     
  15. icehorse

    icehorse Veteran Member
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    I believe you should send me $1,000,000. Do you have any evidence that you do not owe me this money?
     
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  16. Heyo

    Heyo Veteran Member

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    You believe in god, I don't. No argument needed.
     
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  17. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

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    All you have to fall back on then is revelation and mystical experience. Hide and go seek is not a good way to reveal God. Why would a God do that?

    What does God make of those who live their entire lives with no need nor any belief in God?

    There are plenty of people who desire only this life, and living forever they would dread it.
     
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  18. QuestioningMind

    QuestioningMind Well-Known Member

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    No evidence for god isn't an argument against god. It's simply pointing out that without any evidence there isn't any good argument to support the notion of a god.

    If there is a god that's hiding the only test that such a god would be conducting would be to see who among us is gullible enough to accept that it exists without any evidence and who among us is using logic and rational thinking in order to reach conclusions.

    It makes as much sense to believe in a god without evidence because god is hiding on purpose as it would be to believe in magical pixies without evidence because magical pixies are hiding on purpose.

    This is my opinion.
     
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  19. Altfish

    Altfish Veteran Member

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    This life is a test from The Flying Spaghetti Monster. This life is like a school. That is the reason The Flying Spaghetti Monster is hiding. Because if The Flying Spaghetti Monster showed himself to all humans then this life would not have been a test anymore.

    "No evidence of The Flying Spaghetti Monster" is because of this a bad argument against The Flying Spaghetti Monster.

    I believe in The Flying Spaghetti Monster without evidence because The Flying Spaghetti Monster is hiding on purpose.

    This is my opinion.

    Any thoughts?
     
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  20. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    Worst argument ever
     
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