No Doubt about Proof.

[TransmutingSoul]

This has been the subject of many past posts, but I hope to deliver it in a different way and a different light. So how can it be a person can Logically have no doubt about the proof and evidence that brought them to God?

What is it the Proof and Evidence for Faith in God, the Spirit that drives us?



I will approach this from the angle that the power of God or no God lays within our choices, and it depends upon where we choose to source that inspiration.

So if you want to know what a perfect Virtue is, what is the source of that learning?

If I want spiritual knowledge, what is the source we turn to, ourselves or an example?

So an example of how a person of Faith determines what is proof is from the Example set by the founder of their Faith, there is no better proof. I will use the example of the Bab and the Muslim Cleric that was sent from the Shah to examine the Message of the Bab to guage its Truth.

"Among the most unexpected of those who embraced the Cause of the Báb was a brilliant theologian who bore the title of Vahid—meaning “unique”. A trusted advisor to the Shah, Vahid had been sent to interrogate the Báb on behalf of the king, who wished to secure reliable firsthand information about the movement that was sweeping his land. Upon learning of Vahid's conversion, the Shah called for the Báb to be brought immediately to Tehran. The Prime Minister—fearing that his own position might be fatally undermined should the Shah also fall under the Báb’s influence—ordered instead that He be imprisoned in the remote fortress of Mah-Ku, near the Turkish border. The excuse given to the Shah was that the Báb’s arrival in the capital might lead to great public distress and disorder." (from Baha'i.org)

Edit: link to story of Vahid
Siyyid Yahya-i-Darabi (Vahid) – Bahai Chronicles

This was not the only theologian to find that their knowledge was nothing compared with the Bab, so it is logical that the Bab had a knowledge the others did not possess. It is logical that the Bab demonstrated a high level of spiritual capacity and it is logical it is proof to those that are looking for that spiritual knowledge.

There is much to be discussed and debated.


All the best to all people, Regards Tony

 

[DNB]

This has been the subject of many past posts, but I hope to deliver it in a different way and a different light. So how can it be a person can Logically have no doubt about the proof and evidence that brought them to God?

What is it the Proof and Evidence for Faith in God, the Spirit that drives us?

View attachment 55262

I will approach this from the angle that the power of God or no God lays within our choices, and it depends upon where we choose to source that inspiration.

So if you want to know what a perfect Virtue is, what is the source of that learning?

If I want spiritual knowledge, what is the source we turn to, ourselves or an example?

So an example of how a person of Faith determines what is proof is from the Example set by the founder of their Faith, there is no better proof. I will use the example of the Bab and the Muslim Cleric that was sent from the Shah to examine the Message of the Bab to guage its Truth.

"Among the most unexpected of those who embraced the Cause of the Báb was a brilliant theologian who bore the title of Vahid—meaning “unique”. A trusted advisor to the Shah, Vahid had been sent to interrogate the Báb on behalf of the king, who wished to secure reliable firsthand information about the movement that was sweeping his land. Upon learning of Vahid's conversion, the Shah called for the Báb to be brought immediately to Tehran. The Prime Minister—fearing that his own position might be fatally undermined should the Shah also fall under the Báb’s influence—ordered instead that He be imprisoned in the remote fortress of Mah-Ku, near the Turkish border. The excuse given to the Shah was that the Báb’s arrival in the capital might lead to great public distress and disorder." (from Baha'i.org)

This was not the only theologian to find that their knowledge was nothing compared with the Bab, so it is logical that the Bab had a knowledge the others did not possess. It is logical that the Bab demonstrated a high level of spiritual capacity and it is logical it is proof to those that are looking for that spiritual knowledge.

There is much to be discussed and debated.
View attachment 55267

All the best to all people, Regards Tony

Wow, is it just me, or did your example prove absolutely nothing of either the wisdom, veracity or efficacy of the Bab's message. You tried convincing your audience of the integrity of the Bab's message by simply giving an account of one alleged convert, and even then, not explaining the grounds for the conversion??? You've already discredited your whole thesis?

The Judeao-Christian God has deliberately made himself discreet in order that people, for one, search for him, and two, to confound the arrogant and unwise. Therefore, wisdom is what perceives the intangible or the unquantifiable. The spirit of man is the testimony of the spiritual realm, this is evidenced in a very cursory study of anthropology - man, throughout history, has always behaved in a manner that defies his intellect, there is clearly an external force that influences him outside of the physical environment that he finds himself interacting with. Even the animals who have a thousandth of the intellectual capacity of man, are smarter than him.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Wow, is it just me, or did your example prove absolutely nothing of either the wisdom, veracity or efficacy of the Bab's message. You tried convincing your audience of the integrity of the Bab's message by simply giving an account of one alleged convert, and even then, not explaining the grounds for the conversion??? You've already discredited your whole thesis?

The Judeao-Christian God has deliberately made himself discreet in order that people, for one, search for him, and two, to confound the arrogant and unwise. Therefore, wisdom is what perceives the intangible or the unquantifiable. The spirit of man is the testimony of the spiritual realm, this is evidenced in a very cursory study of anthropology - man, throughout history, has always behaved in a manner that defies his intellect, there is clearly an external force that influences him outside of the physical environment that he finds himself interacting with. Even the animals who have a thousandth of the intellectual capacity of man, are smarter than him.

Wow, that would have been a long post, you could have asked for the circumstances, or would you like a link to the entire story in the OP?

I put it in the OP, but here it is.

Siyyid Yahya-i-Darabi (Vahid) – Bahai Chronicles

Regards Tony

 

[DNB]

Wow, that would have been a long post, you could have asked for the circumstances, or would you like a link to the entire story in the OP?

I put it in the OP, but here it is.

Siyyid Yahya-i-Darabi (Vahid) – Bahai Chronicles

Regards Tony

No, it shouldn't require a novel to start a discussion on a casual debate forum. Could you not, without using anecdotal evidence, explain at a high level of what is required to be certain of one's conviction?
I said wisdom, based on the fact that God is spirit (unseen), and that His discretion in this world is deliberate in order to separate the sheep from the goats, the perceptive from the shallow and defiant.

 

[Spirit of Light]

This has been the subject of many past posts, but I hope to deliver it in a different way and a different light. So how can it be a person can Logically have no doubt about the proof and evidence that brought them to God?

What is it the Proof and Evidence for Faith in God, the Spirit that drives us?

View attachment 55262

I will approach this from the angle that the power of God or no God lays within our choices, and it depends upon where we choose to source that inspiration.

So if you want to know what a perfect Virtue is, what is the source of that learning?

If I want spiritual knowledge, what is the source we turn to, ourselves or an example?

So an example of how a person of Faith determines what is proof is from the Example set by the founder of their Faith, there is no better proof. I will use the example of the Bab and the Muslim Cleric that was sent from the Shah to examine the Message of the Bab to guage its Truth.

"Among the most unexpected of those who embraced the Cause of the Báb was a brilliant theologian who bore the title of Vahid—meaning “unique”. A trusted advisor to the Shah, Vahid had been sent to interrogate the Báb on behalf of the king, who wished to secure reliable firsthand information about the movement that was sweeping his land. Upon learning of Vahid's conversion, the Shah called for the Báb to be brought immediately to Tehran. The Prime Minister—fearing that his own position might be fatally undermined should the Shah also fall under the Báb’s influence—ordered instead that He be imprisoned in the remote fortress of Mah-Ku, near the Turkish border. The excuse given to the Shah was that the Báb’s arrival in the capital might lead to great public distress and disorder." (from Baha'i.org)

Edit: link to story of Vahid
Siyyid Yahya-i-Darabi (Vahid) – Bahai Chronicles

This was not the only theologian to find that their knowledge was nothing compared with the Bab, so it is logical that the Bab had a knowledge the others did not possess. It is logical that the Bab demonstrated a high level of spiritual capacity and it is logical it is proof to those that are looking for that spiritual knowledge.

There is much to be discussed and debated.
View attachment 55267

All the best to all people, Regards Tony

I know too little about the teaching in Baha`i and about the Bab to truly be able to say if the Bab was divine or not in his teaching, But since I do not know, it would also be wrong to just brush it off as false.
Was the Bab a very unique and special human being? for sure, but to truly understand one has to deeply understand the teaching and the history about him.

But it is an interesting challenge you put fort

 

[blü 2]

This has been the subject of many past posts, but I hope to deliver it in a different way and a different light. So how can it be a person can Logically have no doubt about the proof and evidence that brought them to God?

What is it the Proof and Evidence for Faith in God, the Spirit that drives us?

You don't need to demonstrate the reality that various people have faith in various gods. I doubt that's in dispute.

The question is, what real entity does the word "God" denote, such that if we find a real candidate we can determine whether it's God or not.

 

[Valjean]

This has been the subject of many past posts, but I hope to deliver it in a different way and a different light. So how can it be a person can Logically have no doubt about the proof and evidence that brought them to God?

Not sure what you mean by "no logical doubt." What premises are you starting with, and how do you support them?

What is it the Proof and Evidence for Faith in God, the Spirit that drives us?

I don't understand 'proof of faith'. Faith, by definition, is belief without proof; without even adequate evidence.

I will approach this from the angle that the power of God or no God lays within our choices, and it depends upon where we choose to source that inspiration.

The power of God, or the existence of God? Are you just saying belief in God is a choice?

"Inspiration?"

So if you want to know what a perfect Virtue is, what is the source of that learning?

No idea -- but what does this have to do with proof or evidence for a God?

If I want spiritual knowledge, what is the source we turn to, ourselves or an example?

Knowledge, or an exemplar?
I suppose the choice is up to the seeker.

So an example of how a person of Faith determines what is proof is from the Example set by the founder of their Faith, there is no better proof. I will use the example of the Bab and the Muslim Cleric that was sent from the Shah to examine the Message of the Bab to guage its Truth.

A person of faith already has belief. Why would he need proof?
How does an exemplar prove anything? S/he may be a good example, but proof, (I'm assuming you mean good evidence) involves critical analysis and testing of facts, not just good examples.

"Among the most unexpected of those who embraced the Cause of the Báb was a brilliant theologian who bore the title of Vahid—meaning “unique”. A trusted advisor to the Shah, Vahid had been sent to interrogate the Báb on behalf of the king, who wished to secure reliable firsthand information about the movement that was sweeping his land. Upon learning of Vahid's conversion, the Shah called for the Báb to be brought immediately to Tehran. The Prime Minister—fearing that his own position might be fatally undermined should the Shah also fall under the Báb’s influence—ordered instead that He be imprisoned in the remote fortress of Mah-Ku, near the Turkish border. The excuse given to the Shah was that the Báb’s arrival in the capital might lead to great public distress and disorder." (from Baha'i.org)

Sorry, but how is this evidence of anything? It looks like ordinary politics.

This was not the only theologian to find that their knowledge was nothing compared with the Bab, so it is logical that the Bab had a knowledge the others did not possess. It is logical that the Bab demonstrated a high level of spiritual capacity and it is logical it is proof to those that are looking for that spiritual knowledge.

But there are dozens of religions with stories of wise people who baffled scholars. How is this story any different?

There is much to be discussed and debated.

OK, so where is the data set we start with, and how are we to test it?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

No, it shouldn't require a novel to start a discussion on a casual debate forum. Could you not, without using anecdotal evidence, explain at a high level of what is required to be certain of one's conviction?
I said wisdom, based on the fact that God is spirit (unseen), and that His discretion in this world is deliberate in order to separate the sheep from the goats, the perceptive from the shallow and defiant.

Very short answer is if you want to be humble, what is it to be humble? Where can you learn to be humble? If you find a teacher that gives a very good teaching and lives it as an example, as to what it is and what it is like to be humble, then that is valid evidence one can use to become humble in their own lives. It based on tangible evidence.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

You don't need to demonstrate the reality that various people have faith in various gods. I doubt that's in dispute.

The question is, what real entity does the word "God" denote, such that if we find a real candidate we can determine whether it's God or not.

The evidence of God to me is then the tangible person and life of the Messenger who offers they are the very embodiment of the Words they offer from God, they offer they are the 'Self of God' in the Spirit of the Word given. God is not flesh, but the best reflection of all we can find within our own selves, the choice of rising above nature to portray the virtues.

The best evidence for those that claim this station, is the very Word they have given, which can then be used to prove if they speak the Truth.

Regards Tony

 

[DNB]

Very short answer is if you want to be humble, what is it to be humble? Where can you learn to be humble? If you find a teacher that gives a very good teaching and lives it as an example, as to what it is and what it is like to be humble, then that is valid evidence one can use to become humble in their own lives. It based on tangible evidence.

Regards Tony

One's own experiences also teach humility. When one forces themselves to engage in various activities and circumstances, life teaches us many things. Reading allows us to witness the experiences of others, so that there is a great deal of learning by vicarious means. I don't believe that a single mentor is necessarily the best source for wisdom. Whatever we're taught from external sources, invariably must coincide with our own understandings of life and the human condition. Thus, again, experience is probably the greatest endowment of education.

 

[blü 2]

The evidence of God to me is then the tangible person and life of the Messenger who offers they are the very embodiment of the Words they offer from God, they offer they are the 'Self of God' in the Spirit of the Word given.

That works quite well if God is an ideal (rather than an entity with objective existence).

God is not flesh, but the best reflection of all we can find within our own selves, the choice of rising above nature to portray the virtues.

Yes, again, God as an ideal is a workable notion.

I tend to think that the important thing is humans behaving with decency towards other humans. If they do that, does it matter what else they like to believe?

And if they don't do that, again, does it matter what else they like to believe?

 

[sun rise]

What is it the Proof and Evidence for Faith in God, the Spirit that drives us?

The proof is in the human heart and intuition not in anything in the world.

The question is, what real entity does the word "God" denote, such that if we find a real candidate we can determine whether it's God or not.

"God" to me is not an "entity" in the world of duality. But if you want to realize the reality, look in the mirror and remove the "veils" that cause you to believe you are an individual. Then you will know the answer to your question.

 

[sun rise]

I tend to think that the important thing is humans behaving with decency towards other humans. If they do that, does it matter what else they like to believe?

And if they don't do that, again, does it matter what else they like to believe?

Nice.

 

[blü 2]

"God" to me is not an "entity" in the world of duality. But if you want to realize the reality, look in the mirror and remove the "veils" that cause you to believe you are an individual. Then you will know the answer to your question.

We're gregarious primates, and our great power is the ability to cooperate to accomplish what we want to do. Our evolved morality thus includes respect for authority and loyalty to the group, as well as the more personal ones such as dislike of the one who harms, and like of fairness and reciprocity.

So yes, there are times when we're most ourselves in a group.

Thanks for your affirmative words ─ well, word ─ on humans being decent to each other.

 

[Truthseeker]

Faith, by definition, is belief without proof; without even adequate evidence.

Wrong! There is adequate evidence. Look for it.

Here is the Baha'i Reference Library:

Bahá’í Reference Library | The Bahá’í Faith

Look there if you dare.

 

[Truthseeker]

I tend to think that the important thing is humans behaving with decency towards other humans. If they do that, does it matter what else they like to believe?

It is not just a matter of believe. It is being inspired to be a better person by a personage you believe in.

 

[blü 2]

It is not just a matter of believe. It is being inspired to be a better person by a personage you believe in.

If it works so that people get on better, with respect and inclusion, I'm rarely going to argue about the method.

 

[Valjean]

Wrong! There is adequate evidence. Look for it.

Here is the Baha'i Reference Library:

Bahá’í Reference Library | The Bahá’í Faith

Look there if you dare.

OK. How do you define faith?
If there were adequate evidence, like there is for evolution, plate tectonics or heliocentricity, there would be no religious controversy in the world.

 

[Valjean]

It is not just a matter of believe. It is being inspired to be a better person by a personage you believe in.

No. This is a question of objective truth and epistemology, not social utility.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Not sure what you mean by "no logical doubt." What premises are you starting with, and how do you support them?

i would offer that the proof is in the pudding. It is not until you sample the pudding, that the true flavors and textures are known. So Spiritual logical tests start with the very ingredients and combination which give it meaning. So can we offer that the premise of Love in this case would be defined in the word and life of the person offering the meaning. If the person offing the definition of Love in word, then also offer it as a reflection of their own person and their life, then Logically they are the definition of that attribute. It is shown to us as a Relative truth.

I don't understand 'proof of faith'. Faith, by definition, is belief without proof; without even adequate evidence.

I see faith is built on the Logical evidence I have mentioned above. Words are what everyone can use and do not distinguish us for any other person who can use the same words. There are the rare few that will reflect exactly what they say in their person and their lives, they become the proof of the Word.

The power of God, or the existence of God? Are you just saying belief in God is a choice? "Inspiration?"

Yes I am offering to embrace God is always a choice, but at the same time it is a gift to the extent we are looking for God in Attributes. I have found the more we meditate on what is an attribute, the more we are inspired by people that portray that attribute.

No idea -- but what does this have to do with proof or evidence for a God?

God can only be known by Attributes, they do not define an unknowable God, but all we can know of God and all the apext of virtues we can aspire to is found in those Attributes.

Knowledge, or an exemplar? I suppose the choice is up to the seeker

Virtues require knowledge with education and practice. Studies show what happens to us if we are left in the animal world without such guidance. There are many case samples of children from the wild. So where do we find the best example of those virtues to teach?

A person of faith already has belief. Why would he need proof?
How does an exemplar prove anything? S/he may be a good example, but proof, (I'm assuming you mean good evidence) involves critical analysis and testing of facts, not just good examples.

All the holy books talk of an age where we will consider ourselves as one people on one planet. To achieve this will take more than has been offered to date, faith can guide us, but faith can also hold us back. So how can we achieve this if a new way is not considered? Has there been any person that has offered a life and the way to achieve this? If there has been, then what they offered will become that standard and that standard will be open for critical analysis and the testing of facts

Sorry, but how is this evidence of anything? It looks like ordinary politics.

It is an example of how easily man can suppress a knowledge beyond their own capacity without a second consideration. Unfortunately this is the history of all God given Faiths and why humanity is slow to progress in capacity of mind.

But there are dozens of religions with stories of wise people who baffled scholars. How is this story any different?

Those stories are what this OP is about, they have been the guides to better ways. Time has proved what they offered is possible, but only to the extent of our receptivity and capacity to what was offered. An example is that Jesus taught us a way to become One people on one planet, but our nature, nurture and prejudices prevented that capacity from unfolding. Truth is relative.

OK, so where is the data set we start with, and how are we to test it?

The data set is all the Virtues, luckily we have a test subject, the name of that test subject was Abdul'baha. Pick a virtue and we can test it against our concept of it ans how it was practiced by Abdul'baha. I hope you will appreciate the enormity of what was just offered.

Thank you for participating, that is the longest answer I have ever attempted. Regards Tony