No Body, No Mind

[Windwalker]

Science has studied the brain extensively and it has come to the conclusion that there are two states in which a living brain can exist....consciously or unconsciously. If consciousness was separate from the brain, then it would still be aware of what is going on when the brain is in an unconscious state. As demonstrated with those who awaken from a comatose state, even after years, they have no memory of the time that has elapsed. So please explain how this is possible if there is some spiritual part of us that can exist separately from the body.

I just heard your thoughts on the matter. Not what science says. If you have some link to some findings of real scientists, that would be great. Otherwise, this is not what science tells us.

“Hard evidence”? Are you serious? There is nothing “hard” about it. The hard evidence they have is for “adaptation”, not running away with the idea that if a little change is detectable, then a big change is inevitable if you give it enough time. That is when assumptions and assertion and best guesses take over from real and provable science.

See?? Just as I said. You praise science when it agrees with you, and curse it when it doesn't. This is disingenuous, intellectually, and spiritually.

If you want to substitute this for God’s direct creation, that is up to you. I think it’s ridiculous to assume that the amazing designs in nature created themselves, undirected. Did your house build itself? Did your computer assemble it’s many intricately designed parts just by accident?

I think the system that God created that can design itself to adapt to the needs of the environment in order to live and flourish and populate this great planet, is in fact absolutely Divine. Evolution is how God creates. Too bad you have this other idea about how creation happened just once, a long, long time ago. I see it in every moment.

Theory relies as much on faith as belief in God does.

No it doesn't. Why on earth would you imagine that? If you have tons of supporting evidence to claims, and teams of experts all agreeing, that's not much of an act of faith. Trusting experts, is actually more a case of common sense, not faith.

Faith in God, has no comparison with trusting the experts in science with science.

I prefer God over science when they conflict....as any good Christian should IMO. Science is not my religion.

It is not a choice between God or science. You make it that. And any really good Christian, should not place their own ideas about truth, ahead of what God tells us about the world through the sciences, He has gifted mankind with in order to know truth. It's really more a matter of us allowing knowledge to grow our current ideas of the way things are in God's world.

Since this is in a religious debate forum, I am simply giving readers the facts as I understand them from the Bible.

They are not the facts of the Bible as you understand them. They are your ideas of what are facts in the Bible. That's a very important distinction to make. They are what you see as facts.

How we see things as facts, changes as we grow.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Did someone have to tell you why were in the recovery room? Or did you ultimately realize on your own that you were anesthetized and why?

It took some minutes, but I was able to put the situation back together. But there was nothing between the beginning of the countdown to the moment when I first started trying to come to grips with the situation.

 

[Straw Dog]

What, in your worldview, remains? What will you experience, if anything, after your physical form ceases to function? Will the experience be animated? Inert? Without the senses of the body/mind, what can you experience? Many speak of seeing their relatives after they die. How does one see without eyes? Hear without ears? Smell without a nose? Taste without a mouth? Touch (feel) without nerve endings

I have a boring opinion and an entertaining opinion. Boringly, I don’t know, not really.

But...

I’m an active dreamer. I imagine realties way beyond what I could practically conceive of. Some dreams are lucid and some dreams are fully immersive.

I often dream of my recently deceased grandmother who raised me. The idea and image of her is still active. Her love still flows. Her character still informs the narrative. In fact, her avatar seems to be helping me gain greater control over my dreams. In the past, I had lesser control.

I don’t know what it means in a philosophically rigorous fashion, but seems to be the closest experiences I have in relating to our more religious brothers and sisters.

 

[The Hammer]

I think we can all agree that our physical form as we currently experience it will at one point fall away, whether suddenly, by disease, or system failure in old age. Our body/mind complex is temporary.

What, in your worldview, remains? What will you experience, if anything, after your physical form ceases to function? Will the experience be animated? Inert? Without the senses of the body/mind, what can you experience? Many speak of seeing their relatives after they die. How does one see without eyes? Hear without ears? Smell without a nose? Taste without a mouth? Touch (feel) without nerve endings?

What, if anything, do you experience?

And please be specific. Anyone who simply answers "God" will be locked in the staff lounge and whipped with a wet noodle.

My body and organs will break down and hopefully feed a tree, and foliage (my goal is to be buried underneath one/have one planted over me.). My mind/being/me, etc, will also cease to be, with no life support systems to maintain it. But my soul/energy/essence will hopefully be reincarnated. But I don't think we have much choice in how that reincarnation plays out, outside of our karmic interactions here.

 

[Mock Turtle]

I have been anaesthetised many times, also have fainted many times, but have never been knocked unconscious. There does seem to be a difference between them (the process), in that flashing images usually don't occur with the former but sometimes occur whilst fainting. Perhaps says more about the physical processes gong on than anything to do with consciousness though.

 

[Aupmanyav]

But my soul/energy/essence will hopefully be reincarnated.

I do not believe in soul, any personal energy or essence, I would put it very simply as the atoms that make my body at the time of death. The atoms were at various places and in various things before my birth, changed continuously throughout my life in my body, and those which constitute me at the time of my death will pass on to millions of things living and non-living. These atoms are eternal and bridge various forms that we perceive. Seen even closer, these are force fields and not rubber balls.

 

[The Anointed]

I do not believe in soul, any personal energy or essence, I would put it very simply as the atoms that make my body at the time of death. The atoms were at various places and in various things before my birth, changed continuously throughout my life in my body, and those which constitute me at the time of my death will pass on to millions of things living and non-living. These atoms are eternal and bridge various forms that we perceive. Seen even closer, these are force fields and not rubber balls.

And what makes you think that atoms are eternal having neither beginning or end?

There were no Atoms in the liquid like plasma of electromagnetic energy that was spewed out in the trillions upon trillions of degrees in the event that is called the Big Bang.

 

[Aupmanyav]

There were no Atoms in the liquid like plasma of electromagnetic energy that was spewed out in the trillions upon trillions of degrees in the event that is called the Big Bang.

Seems you missed the last line of my post. Atoms are a collection of energy points, quarks leptons, gauge bosons and scaler bosons. It is for convenience that we term this arrangement as atoms.

 

[Deeje]

I just heard your thoughts on the matter. Not what science says. If you have some link to some findings of real scientists, that would be great. Otherwise, this is not what science tells us.

All I am hearing are your thoughts....so?

Brain Patterns Help Separate Consciousness from Unconsciousness

You praise science when it agrees with you, and curse it when it doesn't. This is disingenuous, intellectually, and spiritually.

Its more honest to admit that they have no real evidence for macro evolution and teach that as the truth....but they take something that is a pet subject and promote it as if it can't be wrong. That is what I see as dishonest.
Science should be more than educated guessing. You can't present something as fact when you have no proof....surely that is just common sense.

When science can prove something, that is real science.....but when it can't, (and macro-evolution cannot be proven no matter how much science you throw at it) then faith is required to "believe" what cannot be proven. It actually takes more faith to believe in evolution than it does to believe in creation. The Bible says nothing about evolution and I have no reason to believe that God lied about how he made the creatures that inhabit this planet....or even the Universe itself.
That is my opinion.

I think the system that God created that can design itself to adapt to the needs of the environment in order to live and flourish and populate this great planet, is in fact absolutely Divine. Evolution is how God creates. Too bad you have this other idea about how creation happened just once, a long, long time ago. I see it in every moment.

That is your opinion.....I see that creatures stay within the "kinds" that God made.
Adaptation just produces variety within a family of organisms. Science cannot prove that macro-evolution ever happened.....though it can suggest it until the cows come home....
When it can produce those phantom "common ancestors" just let me know.

No it doesn't. Why on earth would you imagine that? If you have tons of supporting evidence to claims, and teams of experts all agreeing, that's not much of an act of faith. Trusting experts, is actually more a case of common sense, not faith.

Oh those "tons of supporting evidence"...like those "mountains" of suggestion that turn out to be a molehill of unsubstantiated assertions. Trusting experts? Really? How does one become an expert in plugging a theory?

Faith in God, has no comparison with trusting the experts in science with science.

I have no problem with science at all.....whatever can be shown to be true and substantiated is fine with me....but evolution is science's own fairy story, IMO. Science is not my religion. It is godless....remember? I trust the Creator....and the Bible, OK? You can trust whomever you like....are you willing to bet your life on them?

It is not a choice between God or science. You make it that. And any really good Christian, should not place their own ideas about truth, ahead of what God tells us about the world through the sciences, He has gifted mankind with in order to know truth. It's really more a matter of us allowing knowledge to grow our current ideas of the way things are in God's world.

He has gifted mankind with the truth...its called the Bible.
How easily those with little faith will ditch God's word for an empty man-made theory.
If that is what you have talked yourself into....go ahead....it makes no difference to me.

They are not the facts of the Bible as you understand them. They are your ideas of what are facts in the Bible. That's a very important distinction to make. They are what you see as facts.

How we see things as facts, changes as we grow.

If you say so.....there are going to be big changes in the world in the near future.....and I have no doubt that God will tell us the difference between facts and fantasy then. Lets wait and see...shall we?

 

[SalixIncendium]

It took some minutes, but I was able to put the situation back together. But there was nothing between the beginning of the countdown to the moment when I first started trying to come to grips with the situation.

But there was, indeed, a continuance of you in the experience, yes? All of your memories intact from before you went under the anesthesia?

Since you never actually went anywhere, wouldn't it be fair to say that you continued to exist through a waking experience prior to being anesthetized, to an experience of absence while anesthetized, and then back to a waking experience once came out of the anesthesia?

 

[SalixIncendium]

My body and organs will break down and hopefully feed a tree, and foliage (my goal is to be buried underneath one/have one planted over me.). My mind/being/me, etc, will also cease to be, with no life support systems to maintain it. But my soul/energy/essence will hopefully be reincarnated. But I don't think we have much choice in how that reincarnation plays out, outside of our karmic interactions here.

What is your being? Your "me" in its simplest form? How does this differ from your "soul/energy/essence?"

__________________________________________

Or your Evanescence...

 

[The Anointed]

Seems you missed the last line of my post. Atoms are a collection of energy points, quarks leptons, gauge bosons and scaler bosons. It is for convenience that we term this arrangement as atoms.

Don't lie young fellow, my response, post #67, was to your post #66, and not to your post #68, and your last line in post #66, and I quote verbatim IS; "These atoms are eternal and bridge various forms that we perceive. Seen even closer, these are force fields and not rubber balls."

Those atoms are not eternal, but are created from the quantum of the electromagnetic energy that was spewed out in the trillions upon trillions of degrees, which quantum are said to be photons, that are said to be discreet elementary particles or wave particles, but they are not particles at all, as they have no mass or electric charge, and yet carry angular and linear momentum.

One would expect, that those wave particles which are the quantum of the liquid like electromagnetic energy, would have continued to expand further and further away from each other in the expansion of the universal building material.

But with the angular momentum of those waves, they collided with each other in nuclear fusion in the creation of the first basic sub-atomic particles. As the universal temperature dropped to some billions of degrees, the dark energy which was the expansion’s acceleration force, began to form into dark matter, hydrogen and helium, with trace quantities of lithium, beryllium, and boron, etc.

So, let me repeat, Atoms are not eternal as you stated in your post #66..

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

But there was, indeed, a continuance of you in the experience, yes? All of your memories intact from before you went under the anesthesia?

Since you never actually went anywhere, wouldn't it be fair to say that you continued to exist through a waking experience prior to being anesthetized, to an experience of absence while anesthetized, and then back to a waking experience once came out of the anesthesia?

Well, I honestly don't think so. I can compare it to sleeping...I've been a light sleeper for many years, after having been caregiver and thus required to be awake and functional at a moment's notice. When I sleep, I am aware of the passage of time -- I don't need an alarm, because I wake up at exactly the same time every morning. I am aware of dreaming, and can remember and ponder much of what I've dreamt. Under anaesthetic, none of that was there. I did not record the passage of any time.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Annointed, thanks for calling me a young man. I am not so young now. We are both 78. As I said in my previous post we call them atoms for convenience. Actually, there are no atoms, particles in certain conditions and waves in other conditions.

 

[The Hammer]

What is your being? Your "me" in its simplest form? How does this differ from your "soul/energy/essence?"

__________________________________________

Or your Evanescence...

I was referring to essentially my personality, what it is that makes me an individual; the energetic interactions between sensations and body, that is ME. Whereas I consider the soul to be the actual electromagnetic energy of the body itself. Does that clarify?

 

[Bird123]

I think we can all agree that our physical form as we currently experience it will at one point fall away, whether suddenly, by disease, or system failure in old age. Our body/mind complex is temporary.

What, in your worldview, remains? What will you experience, if anything, after your physical form ceases to function? Will the experience be animated? Inert? Without the senses of the body/mind, what can you experience? Many speak of seeing their relatives after they die. How does one see without eyes? Hear without ears? Smell without a nose? Taste without a mouth? Touch (feel) without nerve endings?

What, if anything, do you experience?

And please be specific. Anyone who simply answers "God" will be locked in the staff lounge and whipped with a wet noodle.

We are Spiritual beings in our true natures. Find a dark quiet comfortable room away from all external distractions. Close your eyes and focus inward. Say to yourself: It's me. That is who you really are and that will not change.

Though we are Spiritual beings, we are trapped within a physical body. The physical senses are needed for seeing all the parameters of this physical world in order to interact with it. The time-based causal nature of this universe is perfect for learning and senses make the process easier.

Can one see without a physical body? Of course one can. Perceptions do not require a physical body. After all, you see really well during a dream yet your eyes are closed. In reality, this is nothing to worry about. Being free from a physical body will free one from the limits this physical world places on us. It's going to be better.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[SalixIncendium]

I was referring to essentially my personality, what it is that makes me an individual; the energetic interactions between sensations and body, that is ME. Whereas I consider the soul to be the actual electromagnetic energy of the body itself. Does that clarify?

Yes. Thank you.

 

[tayla]

What, in your worldview, remains? What will you experience, if anything, after your physical form ceases to function?

I imagine it will be the same as before birth. Nothing.