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New to Advaita Vedanta, seeking clarification

SeRe

Member
Hello All, I'm very new to the teachings of Advaita Vedanta, and Ramana Maharshi, so please be patient with me. I came across the following:

  1. Ramana Maharshi's note to his mother: The Ordainer controls the fate of souls in accordance with their past deeds. Whatever is destined not to happen will not happen, try how hard you may. Whatever is destined to happen will happen, do what you may to stop it. This is certain. The best course, therefore, is to remain silent.

  2. From 'Day by Day with Bhagavan'
    Question: "Are our prayers granted?"
    Bhagavan Sri Ramana : "Yes, they are granted. No thought will go in vain. Every thought will produce its effect some time or other. Thought-force will never go in vain."
My question is, how can both be true? Suppose a person wants a job at XYZ company, but it is not in his destiny. He still prays to God for it, and according to the above, God grants it.

I am very new to this subject, so I posted here. I understand that the ultimate goal of Advaita Vedanta is to rise above the maya of this world and recognize/merge with the self. I'm just trying to understand the basics.

Also, I came across this answer from an Advaita Vedanta expert in a Q&A on the subject of law of attraction here: Questions and Answers

Yes, following the 'law of attraction' may well help the person that you take yourself to be to achieve your ambitions but, as you saw in the book (How to Meet Yourself), you are then simply brought to the realisation that you are still unfulfilled. This is inevitably so because you are not the person. Who you appear to be in the dream may find the buried treasure and marry the beautiful girl but all is seen to be worthless when you wake up. And it is no different in so-called 'real' life, because that, too, is effectively a dream.

Again, my question is, how can the law of attraction, and unchangeable destiny (lack of free will) be true at the same time?

Thanks in advance!

PS- I really need to know the answer to this question, so I have also posted it in another forum.
 

SalixIncendium

अग्निविलोवनन्दः
Staff member
Premium Member
Great question.

In my understanding, the "law of attraction" is a product of maya and exists only in vyavaharika (relative reality). That which is immutable lies in Paramartika (Ultimate Reality).

Ahamkara (identification with ego) gives one the illusion of choice. This, as I see it, is governed by the gross and subtle bodies, which have a higher degree of changeability than that of the causal body, which is governed by one's karma, one's past deeds, though the causal body is still subject to change.

While one has the illusion of choice and subsequent change as a result of that choice, one is still influenced (or even destined) by one's karma resident in the causal body.

This is my own understanding based on my own studies and experiences. We have other more scholarly folk than myself here that might offer another perspective.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
How deep do you want to go with this, SeRe? There are 'popular' Vedantis, who dish out Hindu theology comprehensible to the masses or understandable from a western, Abrahamic tradition; then there are more metaphysical apologists, who can be pretty inscrutable. Ultimately, Advaita Vedanta is ineffible, and cannot be groked from our third or waking-state consciousness.

There are levels of reality, sort of stacked on top of each other, perceived from different levels of consciousness. What is true, makes sense, or is comprehensible, at one level can be completely different at another level.
We live in 3rd-state, and perceive a very limited sliver of reality. From this state, theoretical physicists can probe higher realities, but still cannot intuitively comprehend the Unity, which is the essence of Advaita.

Your questions seem to reflect a conflict between popular elucidations. Is this the level you want to pursue?

And welcome to RF -- prepare to be befuddled. :)
 
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Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Hello All, I'm very new to the teachings of Advaita Vedanta, and Ramana Maharshi, so please be patient with me. I came across the following:

Ramana Maharshi's note to his mother: The Ordainer controls the fate of souls in accordance with their past deeds. Whatever is destined not to happen will not happen, try how hard you may. Whatever is destined to happen will happen, do what you may to stop it. This is certain. The best course, therefore, is to remain silent.

From 'Day by Day with Bhagavan' - Question: "Are our prayers granted?"
Bhagavan Sri Ramana : "Yes, they are granted. No thought will go in vain. Every thought will produce its effect some time or other. Thought-force will never go in vain."

I understand that the ultimate goal of Advaita Vedanta is to rise above the maya of this world and recognize/merge with the self. I'm just trying to understand the basics.
Advaita comes in various shades. Considering Brahman and other things as same, slightly different, relationship undescribable, etc. Accepting Ishwara or not accepting Ishwara.

1. IMHO, there is no ordainer. That will be dvaita. Furthermore events are not deterministic, they happen at that time.
2. If all things in the universe are Brahman itself, then whom to pray and who will grant prayers? Of course, our thoughts and actions have their repercussions. However, there is no 'thought-force'.

You are already 'self'. With what do you want to merge? Yeah, you need to understand what you are. The books have said 'Tat twam asi' (you are that). It takes time to understand Advaita.
-- prepare to be befuddled. :)
Yeah, we are great at that. Are we not Valjian? :D
 
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SeRe

Member
Great question.

In my understanding, the "law of attraction" is a product of maya and exists only in vyavaharika (relative reality). That which is immutable lies in Paramartika (Ultimate Reality).

Ahamkara (identification with ego) gives one the illusion of choice. This, as I see it, is governed by the gross and subtle bodies, which have a higher degree of changeability than that of the causal body, which is governed by one's karma, one's past deeds, though the causal body is still subject to change.

While one has the illusion of choice and subsequent change as a result of that choice, one is still influenced (or even destined) by one's karma resident in the causal body.

This is my own understanding based on my own studies and experiences. We have other more scholarly folk than myself here that might offer another perspective.

Thank you for your response. From this, I understand that choice is an illusion, and therefore one's prarabdha is the only deciding factor in life? Besides God's grace, of course, for those who have not realized the Self?
 

SeRe

Member
How deep do you want to go with this, SeRe? There are 'popular' Vedantis, who dish out Hindu theology comprehensible to the masses or understandable from a western, Abrahamic tradition; then there are more metaphysical apologists, who can be pretty inscrutable. Ultimately, Advaita Vedanta is ineffible, and cannot be groked from our third or waking-state consciousness.

There are levels of reality, sort of stacked on top of each other, perceived from different levels of consciousness. What is true, or makes sense, or is comprehensible, at one level can be completely different at another level.
We live in 3rd-state, and perceive a very limited sliver of reality. From this state, theoretical physicists can probe higher realities, but still cannot intuitively comprehend the Unity, which is the essence of Advaita.

Your questions seem to reflect a conflict between popular elucidations. Is this the level you want to pursue?

And welcome to RF -- prepare to be befuddled. :)

Thanks for your response. I'm trying to understand how life works, if there is a hack / rule per say that one can follow.

I have been doing a lot of reading as a result of being indoors due to the covid-19 lockdown, and this made me wonder about life in general. Why are babies born sick or handicap, why do pandemics happen, why are some people suffering? I was also depressed due to some personal issues. And I came across explanations by different religions / philosophies. I agree with Hinduism and Karma, as this is the only theory that logically explains why suffering takes place.

But I also came across the teachings of Neville Goddard, who says that imagination can create reality / consciousness is the only reality, and teaches ways to alter reality to suit the self. The members of the forum where this is popular have seen a lot of success, but surely there must be a karmic implication for this?

I don't think I can ever renounce worldly pleasures and realize the self. So I'm trying to figure out the next best option.
 

SeRe

Member
Advaita comes in various shades. Considering Brahman and other things as same, slightly different, relationship undescribable, etc. Accepting Ishwara or not accepting Ishwara.

1. IMHO, there is no ordainer. That will be dvaita. Furthermore events are not deterministic, they happen at that time.
2. If all things in the universe are Brahman itself, then whom to pray and who will grant prayers? Of course, our thoughts and actions have their repercussions. However, there is no 'thought-force'.

You are already 'self'. With what do you want to merge? Yeah, you need to understand what you are. The books have said 'Tat twam asi' (you are that). It takes time to understand Advaita.Yeah, we are great at that. Are we not Valjian? :D

Thanks for your response. Theoretically, yes, I understand that I am already the Self. But I haven't realized it, and don't know if I will in this life, as I aspire to be a householder and have a "normal" life. And till I haven't realized the self, God does exist as separate from me, so I will still need to pray / ask for blessings.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
.. as I aspire to be a householder and have a "normal" life. And till I haven't realized the self, God does exist as separate from me, so I will still need to pray / ask for blessings.
Hah! You think I am not a house-holder and I do not have a "normal life"? I am married for 53 years now, two children, three grand-children, 98 year old mother. That is life. I do not believe in existence of God, I am an atheist. In 'advaita', the greatest hindrance to understanding is belief in God. IMHO (other people have different views), how can you understand non-duality, 'advaita', while believing in a God separate from you? That is 'dvaita' (duality).
 

SeRe

Member
Hah! You think I am not a house-holder and I do not have a "normal life"? I am married for 53 years now, two children, three grand-children, 98 year old mother. That is life. I do not believe in existence of God, I am an atheist. In 'advaita', the greatest hindrance to understanding is belief in God. IMHO (other people have different views), how can you understand non-duality, 'advaita', while believing in a God separate from you? That is 'dvaita' (duality).

I see your point. I'm definitely not an atheist, my whole life I've believed in God, and still do. Perhaps this doesn't make me qualified to pursue advaita as a spiritual path, then?

As an atheist, don't you feel insecure or afraid? If something wrong happens to us theists, we have God to turn to, to beg and ask for help. But what do you do? I've always been curious but never really come across an atheist before.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Thanks for your response. I'm trying to understand how life works, if there is a hack / rule per say that one can follow
"How life works" can be ambiguous. Ordinarily I'd assume such a query probably referred to evolutionary biology, ecology, life social/life skills, or physiology; but as you brought it up in a Vedantic contex I'm assuming there's more to it. (see? Now I'm befuddled :p)
Clarify?
I have been doing a lot of reading as a result of being indoors due to the covid-19 lockdown, and this made me wonder about life in general. Why are babies born sick or handicap, why do pandemics happen, why are some people suffering? I was also depressed due to some personal issues.
Illness and birth defects? -- at a practical level, medicine, genetics and embryology answer these questions, and epidemiology can explain pandemics, but these can get complicated, and most people want simple, psychologically satisfying answers.
And I came across explanations by different religions / philosophies. I agree with Hinduism and Karma, as this is the only theory that

Religion, I find, provides more simple, abstract answers, especially to questions of purpose and meaning. It doesn't explain mechanism, though, so can't give the concrete answers science can.
In Hinduism; karma, reincarnation, &c. can impart purpose and meaning to these things; and suffering and mental health are the particular purview of Buddhism.

Vedanta though, is a horse of a different color. Worldly, 3rd-state affairs are not its purview. Its particular focus is metaphysical, not practical. AV will tell you that 'life is but a dream' -- but this isn't very satisfying from a practical level.

AV is Theoretical Physics, without the maths, and with a great deal of distracting glitter hung on it by well meaning expositors over the years.
But I also came across the teachings of Neville Goddard, who says that imagination can create reality / consciousness is the only reality, and teaches ways to alter reality to suit the self.
Taken literally, this is what Vedanta teaches, but I'm not sure how literally he meant it.
The members of the forum where this is popular have seen a lot of success, but surely there must be a karmic implication for this?
"Success?" In what sense?
I'm not familiar with Goddard, but he appears to be a christian metaphysician. His focus seems to be psychotherapeutic, through an alternation of one's world-view and values. (thanks, Google).
Interesting, but I didn't get the impression of multiple realities or levels of expanded consciousness.

I don't think I can ever renounce worldly pleasures and realize the self. So I'm trying to figure out the next best option.
I wouldn't try. You have to live in the world you perceive. There may be alternate worlds out there, but you can't navigate them if you don't perceive them.
 
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Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Thanks for your response. Theoretically, yes, I understand that I am already the Self. But I haven't realized it, and don't know if I will in this life, as I aspire to be a householder and have a "normal" life. And till I haven't realized the self, God does exist as separate from me, so I will still need to pray / ask for blessings.
Prayer and asking for blessings sounds like Bhakti Yoga, a traditional approach to spiritual (perceptual) progress.
One can understand Unity intellectually, but, as I said, one must live and work in the world you perceive.

Carry on, and good luck.
 
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SeRe

Member
You are correct that Neville Goddard is a christian metaphysician. I have copied and pasted some text below from one of his lectures that explains his thinking and main teaching:

From BRAZEN IMPUDENCE:

A new idea will not become part of your common currency of thought until it has been repeated over and over and you begin to live by it.

You have been taught to believe that God exists outside of you, but I say you are all Imagination. That God exists in us and we in him. That our eternal body is the Imagination, and that is God Himself. I mean every word I have just said, but it is a new thought. Until this new idea becomes a part of your thinking, every time you hear the word, “God,” your mind will go out to something you have conceived God to be.

I will now share with you a very personal story. I tell it to illustrate a principle. Society blamed this lady for what she did, and she paid the price, but I was the cause of her misfortune. I am not going to justify my story and if you can’t take it, I’m sorry. When I first told it, one lady was very upset and I regret that; but I have noticed that when someone has recently given up alcohol, tobacco, meat, or sex, they invariably condemn the state. They feel too close to it to feel secure. I am not saying that this lady had a similar experience where she was the victim; I am only speaking of a principle. Now here is my story:

When I decided to marry the lady who now bears my name I applied this principle. At the time I was terribly involved. I had married at the age of eighteen and became a father at nineteen. We separated that year, but I never sought a divorce; therefore, my separation was not legal in the state of New York. Sixteen years later, when I fell in love and wanted to marry my present wife, I decided to sleep as though we were married. While sleeping, physically in my hotel room, I slept imaginatively in an apartment, she in one bed and I in the other. My dancing partner did not want me to marry, so she told my wife that I would be seeking a divorce and to make herself scarce - which she did, taking up residence in another state. But I persisted! Night after night I slept in the assumption that I was happily married to the girl I love.

Within a week I received a call requesting me to be in court the next Tuesday morning at 10:00 A.M.. Giving me no reason why I should be there, I dismissed the request, thinking it was a hoax played on me by a friend. So the next Tuesday morning at 9:30 A.M. I was unshaved and only casually dressed, when the phone rang and a lady said: "It would be to your advantage, as a public figure, to be in court this morning, as your wife is on trial." What a shock! I quickly thanked the lady, caught a taxi, and arrived just as court began. My wife had been caught lifting a few items from a store in New York City, which she had not paid for. Asking to speak on her behalf I said: "She is my wife and the mother of my son. Although we have been separated for sixteen years, as far as I know she has never done this before and I do not think she will ever do it again. We have a marvelous son. Please do nothing to her to reflect in any way upon our son, who lives with me. If I may say something, she is eight years my senior and may be passing through a certain emotional state which prompted her to do what she did. If you must sentence her, then please suspend it." The judge then said to me, "In all of my years on the bench I have never heard an appeal like this. Your wife tells me you want a divorce, and here you could have tangible evidence for it, yet you plead for her release." He then sentenced her for six months and suspended the sentence. My wife waited for me at the back of the room and said: "Neville, that was a decent thing to do. Give me the subpoena and I will sign it." We took a taxi together and I did that which was not legal: I served my own subpoena and she signed it.

Now, who was the cause of her misfortune? She lived in another state, but came to New York City to do an act for which she was to be caught and tried. So I say: every being in the world will serve your purpose, so in the end you will say: "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do." They will move under compulsion to do your will, just as my wife did.

I tell this story only to illustrate a principle. You do not need to ask anyone to aid you in the answer to a prayer, for the simple reason that God is omnipotent and omniscient. He is in you as your own wonderful IAmness. Everyone on the outside is your servant, your slave, ready and able to do your will. All you need do is know what you want. Construct a scene which would imply the fulfillment of your desire. Enter the scene and remain there. If your imaginal counselor (your feeling of fulfillment) agrees with that which is used to illustrate your fulfilled desire, your fantasy will become a fact. If it does not, start all over again by creating a new scene and enter it. It costs you nothing to imagine consciously!

In my own case the scene was a bedroom of an apartment, with my wife in one bed and I in the other, denoting that I was no longer living in a hotel alone. I fell asleep in that state, and within one week I had the necessary papers to start action on a divorce.

This is what the Bible teaches. It is my text book. "Whatever you desire, believe you have already received it and you will!"

There is no limit to the power of belief or to the possibilities of prayer, but you must be brazenly impudent and not take No for an answer. Try it! When I say you are all imagination, I mean it. While standing here on the platform I can, in a split-second, imagine I am standing on the outside, looking at this building. Or, in another second be in London and view the world from there. You say that’s all hallucination? That it is all in my imagination?


Neville's followers have obtained great success after following his techniques. They have manifested jobs, partners, money, fame etc. I want to try it, but I'm afraid of karmic implications, if any. I asked this question but my question was removed from the Neville forum.

I hope you now understand what I am trying to ask you.
1. Is prarabdha karma changeable?
2. If yes, then why did Ramana Maharshi say that it is not?
3. Does "meddling" with your karma create more karma or result in implications?

Thank you!
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
I see your point. I'm definitely not an atheist, my whole life I've believed in God, and still do. Perhaps this doesn't make me qualified to pursue advaita as a spiritual path, then?

As an atheist, don't you feel insecure or afraid? If something wrong happens to us theists, we have God to turn to, to beg and ask for help. But what do you do? I've always been curious but never really come across an atheist before.
:) Well, there is no need to abandon God in 'Advaita'. You have strains which believe in God, Sri Nimbarka's Dvaitadvaita, Sri Ramanuja's Vishishtadvaita, Sri Vallabha's Shuddhadvaita or Sri Chaitanya's Acintya Bhedabhedadvaita
No, I am never insecure or afraid. If I come across difficulties, I will face them squarely on my own strength, ford them or go under.

मात्रास्पर्शास्तु कौन्तेय शीतोष्णसुखदुःखदाः ।
आगमापायिनोऽनित्यास्तांस्तितिक्षस्व भारत ॥
mātrā-sparśās tu Kaunteya, śītoṣṇa-sukha-duḥkha-dāḥ;
āgamāpāyino ’nityās, tāṁs titikṣasva Bhārata.
Bg. 2.14

O son of Kuntī, the impermanent appearance of happiness and distress, and their disappearance in due course, are like the appearance and disappearance of winter and summer seasons. They arise from sense perception, O scion of Bharata, one must learn to tolerate them without being disturbed.
 

JustGeorge

Not As Much Fun As I Look
Staff member
Premium Member
For further clarification on Advaita and Dvaita...

If Dvaita takes the stance of dualism, and Advaita non-dualism, what is the stance of something in between?

For example, in my experience of myself and my cat, we are different entities. However, in a deeper sense, we are not. We are created of the same materials, and come from the same source.

Likewise with God, can one see God and his/her manifestations as both real in a sense, and unreal, with the knowledge that all will dissolve when one realizes reality within Advaita? Or is this a part of Dvaita?
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Read my last post. It is not that all advaitists reject God. Actually most do not. I am only among the minority. Even Sankara did not reject Ishwara, though he placed it in the Vyavaharika realm. This is about Vaishnava philosophies. You have other sets of Advaita in Shaiva and Shakta traditions (a-la-@Vinayaka ).
 
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Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
I hope you now understand what I am trying to ask you.
1. Is prarabdha karma changeable?
2. If yes, then why did Ramana Maharshi say that it is not?
3. Does "meddling" with your karma create more karma or result in implications?
Generally the Hindu members of this forum do not like to mix Hindu and Christian philosophies. This creates 'varna sankara' (bustard) philosophies. Neither here nor there. To answer your questions:

1. Prarabhda would be of concern to those who believe in reincarnation/rebirth. Since I do not even believe in birth and death, I am not afraid of that. But, if I were to speak as a theist, Prarabhda cannot be changed. Can you change history?
2. Ramana talked as per his understanding, each one of us talks as per our own understanding. Never take the words of a renowned personality as 'God's own truth'. He also was a human just like us. That is what Buddha talked about in his 'Kesamutti' Sutta (commonly known as Kalama Sutta):

Do not go by ..
upon another's seeming ability (bhabba-rūpatāya),
upon the consideration, The monk is our teacher (samaṇo no garū)

3. How can you meddle with your karma? What has been done is done. As I said, you can't change history. You can only take care of what you are doing now or what you may do in future.
 
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SalixIncendium

अग्निविलोवनन्दः
Staff member
Premium Member
Thank you for your response. From this, I understand that choice is an illusion, and therefore one's prarabdha is the only deciding factor in life? Besides God's grace, of course, for those who have not realized the Self?

By "in life," are you meaning life in this perceived reality? If so, it's important to note that choice is no more illusory as life itself. Choices one makes in this perceived reality impact one's prarabdha karma as it pertains to how long one "chooses" to remain in samsara.
 

SalixIncendium

अग्निविलोवनन्दः
Staff member
Premium Member
I see your point. I'm definitely not an atheist, my whole life I've believed in God, and still do. Perhaps this doesn't make me qualified to pursue advaita as a spiritual path, then?

I know you weren't speaking to me, but I'm compelled to point out that there are many that follow both the path of bhakti yoga (the path of devotion) and the path of jnana yoga (that path of knowledge [commonly associated with Advaita Vedanta]) concurrently. While I am on the latter, I see no conflict with following both paths simultaneously.
 

SalixIncendium

अग्निविलोवनन्दः
Staff member
Premium Member
Read my last post. It is not that all advaitists reject God. Actually most do not. I am only among the minority. Even Sankara did not reject Ishwara, though he placed it in the Vyavaharika realm. This is about Vaishnava philosophies. You have other sets of Advaita in Shaiva and Shakta traditions (a-la-@Vinayaka ).

^^THIS^^

Unlike @Aupmanyav, I don't consider myself to be an atheist, because I don't reject deity. Though I have no practical use for deity, I acknowledge their existence in vyavaharika, and I understand their purpose.

Because of this, I don't consider myself to be a theist, either. I suppose if I must be labelled, I would be in the transtheist camp.
 

SeRe

Member
:) Well, there is no need to abandon God in 'Advaita'. You have strains which believe in God, Sri Nimbarka's Dvaitadvaita, Sri Ramanuja's Vishishtadvaita, Sri Vallabha's Shuddhadvaita or Sri Chaitanya's Acintya Bhedabhedadvaita
No, I am never insecure or afraid. If I come across difficulties, I will face them squarely on my own strength, ford them or go under.

मात्रास्पर्शास्तु कौन्तेय शीतोष्णसुखदुःखदाः ।
आगमापायिनोऽनित्यास्तांस्तितिक्षस्व भारत ॥
mātrā-sparśās tu Kaunteya, śītoṣṇa-sukha-duḥkha-dāḥ;
āgamāpāyino ’nityās, tāṁs titikṣasva Bhārata.
Bg. 2.14

O son of Kuntī, the impermanent appearance of happiness and distress, and their disappearance in due course, are like the appearance and disappearance of winter and summer seasons. They arise from sense perception, O scion of Bharata, one must learn to tolerate them without being disturbed.

Thanks for your response. I will explore the works of the teachers you mentioned.
As an atheist, do you believe in positive thinking?
 
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