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New Summer Hot Take just in! Every worker should be part of a union.

Monkeys together ....strong?

  • Yes

    Votes: 7 53.8%
  • No

    Votes: 4 30.8%
  • Nuanced

    Votes: 2 15.4%

  • Total voters
    13

SigurdReginson

Grēne Mann
Premium Member
I'm in a union. It's not perfect, and there are things that I don't like, but I've seen and experienced how employees are treated when they aren't unionized... I'll take the union. :D
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
As the title says. Every worker should at least have the opportunity to be part of a union. Discuss.
You guys don’t have that?
When I started my first job they were talking to me about joining the union.
I think I was still in high school lol
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
I have never had a position that was unionised.
If I did not like the terms on offer I went elsewhere.
I found union rules and conditions worse than I could negotiate for myself.

How ever unions are good for people where individual negotiation is out of the question. It makes life easier for both employer and employee.
But like businesses,, unions, are only as good as the people running them.
Often that is just confrontational and worse than useless.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
As the title says. Every worker should at least have the opportunity to be part of a union. Discuss.
A great dues collection racket. Special interest and lobbying opportunities for bought and paid for politicians who honor favors for votes.

What's not to love?
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Never been in the Boy Scouts.
Never been in the military.
Never been in a parade.
And never been in a union.
All that uniform wearing & thinking alike & tribalism...ugh.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I have never had a position that was unionised.
If I did not like the terms on offer I went elsewhere.
I found union rules and conditions worse than I could negotiate for myself.
I don't believe that for a moment.

How ever unions are good for people where individual negotiation is out of the question. It makes life easier for both employer and employee.
It comes down to both sides' BATNA.

When the negotiation is between you the individual worker and an employee, your BATNA is very weak: if you walk away from the job, you lose your entire livelihood. OTOH, the employer's BATNA is generally very strong: without that individual position filled, they'll probably be able to get along okay until they fill it.

With a union that has the power to strike and has a decent strike fund, suddenly the BATNA changes: the workers' livelihood isn't on the line (if the strike is short or the strike fund is large), so your BATNA as a worker is improved. And the employer's BATNA is worsened, since the union has the power to stop the employer's operations altogether with a strike.

All else being equal, this shift in power will lead to better negotiated outcones for the workers.

But like businesses,, unions, are only as good as the people running them.
Often that is just confrontational and worse than useless.
"Unionized" does not have to mean "confrontational.'
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
I don't believe that for a moment.


It comes down to both sides' BATNA.

When the negotiation is between you the individual worker and an employee, your BATNA is very weak: if you walk away from the job, you lose your entire livelihood. OTOH, the employer's BATNA is generally very strong: without that individual position filled, they'll probably be able to get along okay until they fill it.

With a union that has the power to strike and has a decent strike fund, suddenly the BATNA changes: the workers' livelihood isn't on the line (if the strike is short or the strike fund is large), so your BATNA as a worker is improved. And the employer's BATNA is worsened, since the union has the power to stop the employer's operations altogether with a strike.

All else being equal, this shift in power will lead to better negotiated outcones for the workers.


"Unionized" does not have to mean "confrontational.'

Except for my Last position filling the ten years before retirement which was as a line manager in a large college, where the conditions for every staff level were firmly established and largely based on local government. I always negotiated my own contract. When I left it was always on my own terms I was never sacked. Even at my last post I negotiated the highest point of the scale, and full removal costs. They had already gone through a failed appointment three month previously., and were somewhat desperate, though prepared to wait out the three month notice I was contracted to.
They had shortlisted eight applicants.
I was always prepared to walk away. I always established a new position before giving notice when I wanted to move on. Even my first job was at supervisory level.
I never considered my superiors, or employers different or better than myself.
Bosses are not always right, but they are always the boss, I had no problem with that.
My job was to supply solutions to problems not add to them.

Most employers find it very costly and disruptive filling posts and do not do so lightly.

Unfortunately Confrontation is all too common and damages both sides in negotiations.
A strikes and lockouts are a sign of failure of negotiation, not one of strength. It is like a nuclear threat that always is more damaging than any alternative.

If push comes to shove, employees should hunker down untill they can find other employment then move on, if enough do so, an employer will either be forced to sell, close, or come up with an acceptable deal. This applies as much to small organisations as to big ones.
 

Friend of Mara

Active Member
I have never had a position that was unionised.
If I did not like the terms on offer I went elsewhere.
I found union rules and conditions worse than I could negotiate for myself.
That is an atypical situation. Unions on average have better working condition and significantly better pay. They also are fired less. ll.
How ever unions are good for people where individual negotiation is out of the question. It makes life easier for both employer and employee.
But like businesses,, unions, are only as good as the people running them.
Often that is just confrontational and worse than useless.
I can agree that there may be bad unions. Lets take a union I dislike for example. The police unions. They have definitely taken it a step too far and while I don't think it should be abolished it should be re-worked. There should be some sort of system that keeps a pulse on unions as well as rules for them as well. I think by extension the leadership of a union should ALWAYS come from the population rather than an external or outside leadership. They should be democratically elected by the workers that they represent and should be subject to removal by democratic means as well.

I actually wish for businesses to be as close to worker co-ops as possible. But I am willing to haggle for unionization.
 

Friend of Mara

Active Member
A great dues collection racket. Special interest and lobbying opportunities for bought and paid for politicians who honor favors for votes.

What's not to love?
How is this literally any different than the current system except unions also get a slice of the pie not just corporations?
 

Friend of Mara

Active Member
Never been in the Boy Scouts.
Never been in the military.
Never been in a parade.
And never been in a union.
All that uniform wearing & thinking alike & tribalism...ugh.
We disagree on almost as much as we agree sometimes. But I got to tell you I do respect the rebel outcast vibe you got. If it is any consolation I don't want forced unionization. I just want it to be universally optional. More choices. Not less.
 

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
Did you not enjoy the increased pay and benefits?
Actually the union jobs are the only ones where I had to work forced overtime.
And it seems to me it kind of enhances the pecking order, everything becomes about seniority.
But that was just my experience.
The unions were needed in thier day... Now in this country we have so many regulations every business is supposed to follow, I'm not really sure how much they help.
 

Friend of Mara

Active Member
Actually the union jobs are the only ones where I had to work forced overtime.
And it seems to me it kind of enhances the pecking order, everything becomes about seniority.
But that was just my experience.
The unions were needed in thier day... Now in this country we have so many regulations every business is supposed to follow, I'm not really sure how much they help.
Both the GDP and production have outpaced inflation over the last 30 years. However wages have not? Why do you think they are not needed? Right to work states have been stomping out every opportunity to increase wages or worker conditions. If from the 90's median household income and simply stayed with inflation we would have over 100k as the median. If it had stayed in pace with production value of labor since the 90's it would be nearly 200k an average household.


snapshot-unionmembership.0.png
 

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
Both the GDP and production have outpaced inflation over the last 30 years. However wages have not? Why do you think they are not needed? Right to work states have been stomping out every opportunity to increase wages or worker conditions. If from the 90's median household income and simply stayed with inflation we would have over 100k as the median. If it had stayed in pace with production value of labor since the 90's it would be nearly 200k an average household.


snapshot-unionmembership.0.png
Oh I thought you wanted an opinions based on experiences in unions. I'm not the math guy, I just know what I like. I will say that since I've been self-employed, I get a lot of breaks, and nobody complains if I'm on the phone, but my boss is a real slave driver.
 

Friend of Mara

Active Member
Oh I thought you wanted an opinions based on experiences in unions. I'm not the math guy, I just know what I like. I will say that since I've been self-employed, I get a lot of breaks, and nobody complains if I'm on the phone, but my boss is a real slave driver.
Being self employed can definitely be better than being in a union. But being in a union is better than being in a non-unionized workforce such as mcdonalds, walmart, amazon ect.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
How is this literally any different than the current system except unions also get a slice of the pie not just corporations?
It's the special interest and lobbying associated with unions that I have a contention with.

Otherwise it would be left up to the workers if they want one or not.
 
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