in fact almost 50% of the refugees come from Syria alone, 20% from Afghanistan and almost 10% from Iraq, that leaves 95% to come from sub saharan Africa fake news Luca85
European migrant crisis - Wikipedia
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
New Poll: Majority of Europeans Polled in Ten Countries Would Support a Trump-Style Ban
- Thread starter Debater Slayer
- Start date
in fact almost 50% of the refugees come from Syria alone, 20% from Afghanistan and almost 10% from Iraq, that leaves 95% to come from sub saharan Africa fake news Luca85
European migrant crisis - Wikipedia
I would not call secularism an opposition to religion either.
Secularism is all about refusal to define people and institutions as a function of religious belief. That is a far cry short from opposition to religion, and as a matter of fact it is a necessary componente of true religious freedom.
Brazil's literacy demographics are considerably higher than 80%, but that does not imply that most of our population are well-educated and have reasonable marketable qualifications. If only! In reality we have huge numbers of only nominal literates, and an ever more difficult job market which is already rather disrespectful of honest work and is growing worse in the foreseeable future.
Even leaving that aside, I think we can agree that it is no small feat to attain social integration and acceptance in "the West" without being literate. Earning a living with dignity would be challenge enough, but there are subtler aspects to it. For instance, family dynamics may become very strained when some people can communicate effectively with the wider community and other do not.
Even if we assume that only one in each five immigrants have a hard time integrating, with no significant indirect impact on any of the others, that is a very significant social challenge that needs sober consideration.
Hardly.
But come on, people demand care and resources. That is just the nature of things.
There is no magical switch that allows us to ignore that with no serious consequences. It is very much legitimate to consider how refugees and other immigrants are expected to integrate into the culture and the job market.
I don't know how things are in the USA and Canada in that respect, but Brazil has plenty of people living under very undignified situations, in the streets with no roof to sleep under, surviving in a day-by-day basis under dangerous conditions while the people around them do their best to fail to notice their existence and ignore their begging for money.
That is not a novelty, but it sure seems to be growing worse, mainly because we are terrible at social integration and keep pursuing the mirage of "making it good for ourselves".
I don't think it is wrong to rationally analyse the odds of a similar fate inflicting itself on refugees and hoping to find better alternatives. Not at all.
It deals with a huge problem. This immigration was defined massive because it is not manageable: it's all about numbers. The numbers are not manageable. Just to make North Americans here understand (who know very little about what happens in Europe, with all due respect, and I don't mean you), these were the numbers only in 2015.
We are speaking of 1 million arrivals and the 95 % of these immigrants (at least, in Italy) do not come from the Arab world, but from Sub-Saharan Africa. And most of the times, they don't escape from any wars, as Syrians do.
As you can see, Italy and Greece are the only countries which use their military forces (army and Navy) to rescue the people who arrive in their territorial waters. So they are the countries in Europe which host the highest number of immigrants.
Even a child would understand that those numbers are not manageable, also because if this kind of massive immigration doesn't stop, the resources to support these people will run out sooner or later.
So I don't see any solution. Do you have one?
If you read above, that 95 % is referred to my country. But if you need sources, I can provide you with an Italian article: Gli sbarchi in Italia nel 2016: alcuni dati per smentire l’allarmismo - UNHCR
In that article there is this :
That 23 % is made up of other Sub-Saharan countries.
More fake news, I don't believe for one second that none of the refugees to Italy are from Libya, or Algeria, or Tunisia
"Altri" means "another", and that picture atributes 23% of the people who migrate to Italy to that catch-all origin.
Further down, the article specifically states that 82% of the migrant boats going to Italy in 2016 came from Lybia, and also that this number is going down while more come from Egypt, Tunisia and Algeria.
Last edited:
For decades and decades now "the west" has provided billions and billions of dollars of on-site aid, all over the world. We continue to do so. A place like Syria is a political hotbed. If Syrian politics were at all stable, the west would be providing much more aid there than we currently are. Of course, if we were to try to intervene to stabilize the situation, there would be cries of "imperialism" or "western interference" or some such, right?
I think we have gone way past half-way here. Especially considering that every attempt to suggest Islamic reform is met with anger. So the message I get from these immigrants is this:
- our country sucks
- we will be angry with you if you send us aid - you will be interfering
- so we demand to be let into your countries
- but we immigrants will not abandon the worldview that got us stuck in the first place, and moreover, we immigrants are offended that you won't just bankrupt your economies for us no questions asked.
Flankerl
Well-Known Member
Ah yes statistics from dictatorships are always fun. Turns out life there is better than in heaven. Don't believe me? They got the statistics to prove it!
Shad
Veteran Member
I think people do not understand having two oceans flanking a nation does a lot to limit the immigrant classes to those that are capable of paying for tickets while also having the necessary funds to cover the transition to citizenship. They are typical middle and upper class from their homeland rather than low class.
The last few decades have certainly given us all little to go on in order to avoid such a perception.
If anything, the first item seems to often be presented as "our country ****s and we blame everyone but ourselves for it - "foreigners", "the absence of a caliphate", "the fulfillment of the Qur'ans prophecies", "the lack of sincere effort to follow the Qur'an", "the existence of so many unbelievers and false Muslims around us", "the global sionist western conspiracy of the unpious and prejudiced", you name it.
My personal favorite is "the crusaders". As it turns out, it seems to be ISIS's as well. They apparently keep finding people who actually believe that their destructive campaign is some sort of heroic resistance against the "crusaders of this day".
At its root, this persistent and most worrisome message is a direct admission of incompetence, a very self-contradictory expectation of receiving both distance and protection from everyone else. Apparently for no other reason beyond that being expected as the supposedly fair reward for true believers in the God of the Qur'an.
As long as such a twisted perception finds significant root in Muslim communities, it will be essentially impossible for people to have true respect for Islaam. Because it will not deserve it.
And then again, what little good will there is towards immigrants usually disregards the most humble and less educated among them anyway.
Shad
Veteran Member
Good will does nothing to establish an immigrant will become a successful part of their new home.
That is patently untrue.
Shad
Veteran Member
Show the correlation between good will and sucess
Take a look at the works of Peter Singer. He has lots of examples, particularly in "How Are We to Live?" and "The Life You Can Save: Acting Now to End World Poverty".
Underhill
Well-Known Member
Most of that is true for all devout communities. If it isn't violence then what differentiates them from Jewish communities or the Amish for that matter?
I think we tend to forget in the US that most of our terrorist are not muslim. They do tend to be fervent believers of some kind though...
If it is, then I am somehow missing the telltale signs.
Doctrine. The Amish and Judaism are fairly developed religions, with a healthy dose of fraternity and moral values.
Islaamic doctrine apparently lacks that religious role, being instead based on the glorification of monotheism as source of tribal cohesion.
True enough, but that is mainly a reflection of how few and how atypical are the Muslims that exist in the USA.
The challenges in attaining effective mutual understanding with wider Islaam are no less real for that. If anything, they become a bit harder to acknowledge.
Milton Platt
Well-Known Member
People can be wrong in groups.
Shad
Veteran Member
Neither are examples of good willing but financial investments and ethic. Neither establishes good will leads to success rather each shows financial investment can lead to success. You have used good will as a catch all term.