New Poll: Majority of Europeans Polled in Ten Countries Would Support a Trump-Style Ban

[Laika]

I completely agree. That said, we have a problem, and the first step towards a compassionate solution is to name the problem honestly.

There are a few precedents for this type of situation. First, we've seen Christianity reform itself. It wasn't easy or fast or pain-free, but it happened.
More recently, in the US at least, we saw smoking go from "cool" to "uncool" in a generation.

So I think that compassionate solutions are possible. But I don't think we can start off by saying "all of these problems have nothing to do with Islam" - which is what politicians always say

What would you say to the government giving subsidies or tax emeptions to "approved" liberal/progressive Islamic organisations so they have a economic edge over their conservative counter-parts to gain converts?

I don't like it as it turns them into "western puppets" working for the state and breaks the secular idea of not having an edtablished church but its one of the least "coercive" ideas I can come up with. Its better to try and help the reformists than just punish the conservative branches of the religion.

Is there something simpler maybe?

 

[Akivah]

To be fair I think most of these can be traced to western imperialism.

So Arabs bear no responsibility for their own problems? It must be nice to be able to blame the other for all of one's problems.

 

[icehorse]

To be fair I think most of these can be traced to western imperialism.

I'm sorry, you simply have to let this old, tired, wrong idea go. Just let it go...

 

[icehorse]

What would you say to the government giving subsidies or tax emeptions to "approved" liberal/progressive Islamic organisations so they have a economic edge over their conservative counter-parts to gain converts?

I don't like it as it turns them into "western puppets" working for the state and breaks the secular idea of not having an edtablished church but its one of the least "coercive" ideas I can come up with. Its better to try and help the reformists than just punish the conservative branches of the religion.

Is there something simpler maybe?

FWIW, I think you're asking great questions here. My thoughts often go to improved education. A little "comparative religion studies" would go a long way.

 

[icehorse]

Colonialism, America continually overthrowing other countries governments and replacing them with pro-west ones, America's destabilization of the east bloc, surplus extraction, etc.

What here is wrong?

I would agree that colonialism is a factor. But there are so many other factors now, and for the last hundred years, and for the last two hundred years and for the last 1300 years. If you study even the basics of Islamic history, you can see that it's been intolerant and violent from day one. (Of course, so has Christianity.)

And when you consider these things consider the "saves" that the west has made as well, that don't get much credit.

In my experience, Islam teaches Muslims that Islam is perfect and beyond reproach, and one side-effect of that is that Muslims are always quick to blame everyone else for their problems.

You might try looking over all of the RF debate threads and try to find times when a Muslim will agree that Islam has even the slightest problem. Rarer than hen's teeth.

On the other hand, on this very same forum you see westerners criticizing the west all the time.

 

[icehorse]

The current state of Islamism did not come out of no where.

Can you tell me how you define "Islamism"? Because I believe Islamism has been a part of Islam from day one.

 

[icehorse]

Islamism has been a common belief among the Islamic however the current state of Muslim government in ME is a fairly recent construct.

So I guess you'r saying there is a new flavor of Islam in the ME? Perhaps there is, can you explain it? And how it's different than what's always been there?

 

[Estro Felino]

Also, I don't think we can blame Obama for all this. For starters, he's one man in government, and also the problems in the area at present have roots going back further than 2008.

We are in the 21st century. But it's like we were still in the Middle Ages, given that the Mediterranean area is split in two parts. There is no total mutual trust, but only cold diffidence between Europe and the Arabic-speaking countries, and this is not good. We should be united and we should cooperate together.
If there is no mutual cooperation, the Mediterranean area can't function properly, but it will always be threatened by turmoil, coups d'état, instability, massive immigration.
I know what Obama did, and I know what Hillary Clinton did. They contributed to the destabilization of several areas of the Arab world, even if the situation is going back to normal, mostly.

Spoiler: What Obama did

 

[Flankerl]

Personally, I think all 5 million Syrian refugees should come to Canada. We could use their valuable labour, and as well, we have the space.

You guys still have early 20th century style work? I would've thought that Canada isn't such a dump.

 

[Shad]

Colonialism, America continually overthrowing other countries governments and replacing them with pro-west ones, America's destabilization of the east bloc, surplus extraction, etc.

What here is wrong?

The other sides involved in these situations namely Communist nations. The east bloc was unstable long before direct American involvement

 

[Willamena]

You guys still have early 20th century style work? I would've thought that Canada isn't such a dump.

No, we have early 21st Century style work.

 

[Flankerl]

No, we have early 21st Century style work.

So how are you going to integrate these people who often only barely can write in their native language?

Because that is the reality on the ground with these "refugees" in Europe. Its not the nice Canadian utopia which carefully selects those who are good enough but frank mass immigration of unskilled people.

Germany alone has just some 1 million illegal immigrants to worry about and annually will have to pay +50.000.000.000 Euro to keep these people alive.
This figure isn't done yet since most language centres are overfilled with these people so putting them to work is absolutely ridiculous and only the most delusional do-gooders still cling to that fantasy. Getting them all ready for the job market would cost hundreds of billions of Euro.
This doesn't even touch the subject of their finalised socialisation and different ethics, morals and all that fun stuff.

And as the fact stands they will never be integrated into our job market. Why?
The coming complete automation of everything. Only higher educated jobs will survive. There simply won't be a job for them.
And its not even a surprise, even those who've underwent the entire school system and job market since birth (I think the evil right calls them "Natives") and only attained a job in the lower-income sector will lose their jobs and many already have.
It is ridiculous to believe that someone who has not even the remotest school diploma will not only do menial work that can be easily automated.

Automation is always cheaper for the corporation. Unless you pay the corporation to hire these "refugees". But that might send quite the bad signal to the low-income natives.


The gig is up.

 

[Lyndon]

What an ignorant comment, you actually think Syrians don't learn to read a write in Syria, the immigrants are among the higher educated Syrians, the rest couldn't afford the trip.

 

[Willamena]

So how are you going to integrate these people who often only barely can write in their native language?

Are you serious? We're talking about Syrian refugees.

 

[Estro Felino]

Are you serious? We're talking about Syrian refugees.

It deals with a huge problem. This immigration was defined massive because it is not manageable: it's all about numbers. The numbers are not manageable. Just to make North Americans here understand (who know very little about what happens in Europe, with all due respect, and I don't mean you), these were the numbers only in 2015.

We are speaking of 1 million arrivals and the 95 % of these immigrants (at least, in Italy) do not come from the Arab world, but from Sub-Saharan Africa. And most of the times, they don't escape from any wars, as Syrians do.
As you can see, Italy and Greece are the only countries which use their military forces (army and Navy) to rescue the people who arrive in their territorial waters. So they are the countries in Europe which host the highest number of immigrants.
Even a child would understand that those numbers are not manageable, also because if this kind of massive immigration doesn't stop, the resources to support these people will run out sooner or later.
So I don't see any solution. Do you have one?

One thing fake news Luca 85 does not care about is facts!!

If you read above, that 95 % is referred to my country. But if you need sources, I can provide you with an Italian article: Gli sbarchi in Italia nel 2016: alcuni dati per smentire l’allarmismo - UNHCR

In that article there is this :

That 23 % is made up of other Sub-Saharan countries.

 

[Lyndon]

your numbers are way off. fake news!! 95% of immigrants do not come from sub saharan Africa

 

[Servant_of_the_One1]

According to a recent poll, a majority of Europeans polled in a total of ten countries would support a ban on immigration from Muslim-majority countries similar to the ban issued by Trump:



Source: 'Sobering' poll finds majority in leading EU nations would back Trump-style travel ban

What are your thoughts?

Iam not surprised. West has always been at war with Islam.
Whoever disagrees lies only to himself.

Their front and strongest base is called Israel. Insha Allah it will be broken.

 

[LuisDantas]

Iam not surprised. West has always been at war with Islam.
Whoever disagrees lies only to himself.

Their front and strongest base is called Israel. Insha Allah it will be broken.

I think you will have to redefine your understanding of "being at war with Islaam" sometime soon, personally.

Current trends strongly imply that what is likely to come in the next few years will be much more direct and disastrous than what we had in the last few centuries. And a very large part of the blame comes directly from this inconsequential atitude you display yourself.

 

[Flankerl]

What an ignorant comment, you actually think Syrians don't learn to read a write in Syria, the immigrants are among the higher educated Syrians, the rest couldn't afford the trip.

Care to provide some sources? I can.

Integration: "Zwei Drittel können kaum lesen und schreiben"
You don't speak German? That sucks.
Oh and don't even try some UN statistic. Their numbers are derived from the illegal migrants themselves and aren't reliable at all.

Are you serious? We're talking about Syrian refugees.

Yeah. Its fun.
You New Worlders are really out of the loop because you usually got rich Alawites and the like.
Obviously they are educated, but they don't hang out in Europe.
We got the poor Sunnis because the Alawites and the like go to North America.

But be my guest, take them all.

 

[Lyndon]

literacy of Syrians 80%

Demographics of Syria - Wikipedia