New Here! A Little About Myself.

[SeekingAnswers]

Sorry. That was a weird thing to say. I am weird. Again apologies...

My point is this:

You mentioned that you are sometimes afraid to ask questions because you are afraid of effectively being outcast from the church.

@metis was encouraging you; asking questions is not a problem in Catholicism because of discernment. I was attempting to support this from a different, admittedly weird, perspective.

First: If catholic, ( Lower case c ) means open-minded, then maybe you should feel good about asking your questions. Maybe knowing the dictionary definition is like having a new tool in your toolbox to use in case you have questions but are concerned about asking them. My intention was to give you this tool, so you can say to yourself, if you are afraid to ask something, "By asking questions, I am being catholic, open-minded. No one in the Catholic Church should cast me out for being catholic, open-minded." Depending on the situation and the company you are in, you might be able to share the dictionary definition to support others in the Catholic Church who have questions too.

When I said maybe I'm catholic too, I was poking fun at myself. Cause I like all religions, and in a way I believe in all religions. I don't practice all religions. But I believe all of them have value. In practice it's comical. Because, who believes in all religions? I do. It's comical in a foolish childish way.

But, technically, by the Google definition. Maybe I'm catholic too.

I was trying to help. I thought it was relevant. Sorry for being weird.

No need to be sorry at all. I just had no idea what you were getting at, actually seemed like you might be insulting Catholics, but I really didn't know lol. I see what you meant by it now thank you for explaining.

 

[dybmh]

actually seemed like you might be insulting Catholics

Good to know... thank you.

 

[SeekingAnswers]

Good to know... thank you.

Not that it would have hurt my feelings if you did. I just wasn't sure how to respond appropriately

 

[Audie]

This conflicts with Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs. Food is at the bottom of the pyramid. Self-Actualization is at the top. Being fed is just the most basic of human needs.

"all problems are solved"? No way...

Maybe what you are saying is, Humans are dogs?

If you're talking about men. You have a good point. But Humans are not dogs.

ref: Maslow's hierarchy of needs - Wikipedia

also, I think you meant to tag @ChristineM , right?

And finally, Good Morning, Audie. I hope you're well

Yeah, whatevs.
And
Top o' the morning to you.

 

[Audie]

Here's the thing. You are assuming that you know the religious way. I propose that you don't.

Another Douglas Adams quote comes to mind. The quote is about space. But it's true for Religion as well.

"[Religion] is big. Really big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind-bogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist, but that's just peanuts to [Religion]."

There is, among the countless phonies, a
religious way to actually get the information?

 

[Audie]

Would you care to elaborate on how you meant it?



Apologies if the use of "perhaps" has offended you. What you said may very well be true, but all you included was an ambiguous statement about asking why for every response. You didn't provide anything to illustrate your claim that it is childish just that vague example so I didn't have much to go off of there.

If I said that Atheism is childish it's like just saying "No." every time religion is brought up... that wouldn't give you much to work with either.

If you have specific reasoning why existential dread is "childish" then really I am all ears. I'm not defending existential dread I am experiencing it. If there's a logical way out of it, I'm excited for it.



"Mind-trap" isn't a term I can find anywhere so I'm not sure if this is a specific term, or if there is a specific sort of mental trap you are trying to refer to? I am curious because if there's a serious issue in my line of thinking I'd really like to be enlightened to it.

Backwards on "why" because some religious quest
will never get you there, and sometimes plain
old basic research does turn up an answer
to a "why". Used to be for example people \would
try to figure out why the gods was mad at them.

Turns out volcanoes and sickness are not god-
anger.

No offense at all. As I recall what I meant was,
like-
Kid asks, "why is the sky blue?"
A- the other colors are absorbed.
Kid "why"?
You run out of answers pretty fast.

It is childish not to know that, and to persist
in asking questions like that.

If you are looking for logic to get you out of
existential dread, you are probably out of luck.
I think it is an issue with emotions, not logic.

Logically, you can sees that as nobody has
ever gotten anywhere with life's persistent
questions, you are not likely to either.

Awake at night stewing is an emotional thing.

You might, btw, just ry taking two aspirins.
Aspirin does affect the nervous system;
we all have times of lying awake, mind
zooming about. One one such night,
the thought "aspirin affects the nervous system"
came up. i got up and took two.

Everyone I have suggested that to has found
it works great. May not apply in your case, but ,
it can sure help to get a good nights sleep, if it
does work occasionally.

I may have made up the term "mind trap"/
Probably I did not.

SOMETHING, though, has got hold of your mind,
and is giving you a hard time, in a most unproductive
sort of way. Not meaning it in an outside entity sort of\
way, of course, that got ahold of you.

There are a lot of difficult and interesting problems
out there, ones that have a chance of being worked
through. I think you need a different hobby, to crowd
that one out.

You do know that this your quest will never take you
anywhere good, right?

 

[LuisDantas]

Welcome to RF, @SeekingAnswers !

I hope you enjoy the environment.

 

[LuisDantas]

So this specific term I'd never encountered. Thank you for introducing it to me.

Prior to our marriage I actually didn't think I'd become a Catholic. But I worked for a year during the RCIA process with priest (who passed away before the end of my RCIA class, I miss him deeply.) on learning Catholicism. We connected very well and he had great answers for pretty much any question I could come up with. He encouraged doubts and questioning. He considered them natural and healthy and I really thought it was a breath of fresh air and I doubt I would have become Catholic if not for him. I find most Catholics to not be so open to questions of the faith and church.... but I am afraid to openly question things like the Immaculate Conception of Mary because it's such a central part of the faith. I love the community and I love the church, but I feel scared that if I question some of these teachings I'll be effectively outcast from the church.

It seems to me that it unavoidably comes down to a personal decision on what you are willing to risk and what you are willing to pursue.

My experience with Catholics suggests that in most cases they are actually a fairly mixed bag when it comes to doctrine. Here in Brazil many are simply not very interested in it. It can be tricky to gauge who you can talk freely with about such things, though.

But it is not a given that convergence of understanding of doctrine is important. As so much else, it is actually to a large extent a matter of personal perception. It may actually be very rewarding to pursue mutual understandings among people with differences of doctrine. It may be workable to pursue such understandings and their rewards, and other forms of reward and understanding with people with closest doctrinary mindsets.

Specifically about the Immaculate Conception, it may be helpful to consider that even most Catholics are mistaken about what that means exactly. In a nutshell, it means that Mary was free from the Original Sin, but many people mistake that with the Virgin Birth.

 

[dybmh]

I am suggesting it is quite the opposite. Religion leads
quickly to the dead end of god did it with magic.

Seeking answers of various sorts to generally quite
mundane things like, "why do we get sick?" can be
done the religious way, or via research.

Here's the thing. You are assuming that you know the religious way. I propose that you don't.

Another Douglas Adams quote comes to mind. The quote is about space. But it's true for Religion as well.

"[Religion] is big. Really big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind-bogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist, but that's just peanuts to [Religion]."

There is, among the countless phonies, a religious way to actually get the information?

Because you said, "a" religious way; my answer is no. I don't think there is "a" single way to get the information.

And that was my point by quoting Douglas Adams. [Religion] is big, vastly, hugely, mind-bogglingly big.

 

[Audie]

Because you said, "a" religious way; my answer is no. I don't think there is "a" single way to get the information.

And that was my point by quoting Douglas Adams. [Religion] is big, vastly, hugely, mind-bogglingly big.

Um ok. But maybe you can name A (even one) religious way that is wroth pursuing in this context?

 

[dybmh]

Um ok. But maybe you can name A (even one) religious way that is wroth pursuing in this context?

I'm really sorry Audie. My brain is starting to get really literal, and I feel like it's going to become annoying to discuss this with me.

I am happy to proceed; i think it's a fascinating topic.

But, fair warning... this could become tedious for you, or anyone reading it...

Here's where I'm stuck:

You used the word "worth". Worth is an assessment of value. And that's subjective.

 

[Audie]

I'm really sorry Audie. My brain is starting to get really literal, and I feel like it's going to become annoying to discuss this with me.

I am happy to proceed; i think it's a fascinating topic.

But, fair warning... this could become tedious for you, or anyone reading it...

Here's where I'm stuck:

You used the word "worth". Worth is an assessment of value. And that's subjective.

Are you then thinking that "worth" has no relevance and
neither does anything else that is subjective?

What is wrong with subjective?

Consider the worth of doing something entirely
self centered and pointless, v doing something
to benefit others?

Or pick some other word that suits you better than
"worth".

"It is better to give than receive" is a far more
profound observation than the trite phrasing
would suggest.

 

[dybmh]

Are you then thinking that "worth" has no relevance and
neither does anything else that is subjective?

What is wrong with subjective?

I'll address this first.

Here's what you said:

Um ok. But maybe you can name A (even one) religious way that is worth pursuing in this context?

because you used the word "worth" and worth is subjective, there is no definite answer.

Or pick some other word

If I adjust your question slightly; I think I can answer it accurately:

Can [you] name A (even one) religious way that is worth pursuing in this context for me?

The answer to this question is probably not. You seem perfectly happy without religion, and so, it does not have "worth" to you.

on the other hand

Can [you] name A (even one) religious way that is worth pursuing in this context for anyone?

The answer to this question is obviously yes. So many people find religion useful for answering difficult questions about life and death, and how to approach difficult decisions in their lives. For many people religion is worth pursuing in this context. Which ones? All of them. From LHP, to Druidry, to Monotheism, to Buddhism... I think all of them are worth pursuing. Like I said before, not just in this thread: I think all religions have value.

That's why subjective matters.

Religion has worth for me, and so many people agree. But it doesn't have worth for everyone.

 

[Audie]

I'll address this first.

Here's what you said:



because you used the word "worth" and worth is subjective, there is no definite answer.


If I adjust your question slightly; I think I can answer it accurately:



The answer to this question is probably not. You seem perfectly happy without religion, and so, it does not have "worth" to you.

on the other hand



The answer to this question is obviously yes. So many people find religion useful for answering difficult questions about life and death, and how to approach difficult decisions in their lives. For many people religion is worth pursuing in this context. Which ones? All of them. From LHP, to Druidry, to Monotheism, to Buddhism... I think all of them are worth pursuing. Like I said before, not just in this thread: I think all religions have value.

That's why subjective matters.

Religion has worth for me, and so many people agree. But it doesn't have worth for everyone.

Ah so desu ka.

I mean it in the sense of. "Is alchemy worth pursuing?"
(if one wishes to achieve anything in chemistry)
Plainly not.

I see religion as being much like alchemy.

Value is subjective. Nothing wrong with that.
If the Answers you seek are also subjective, well.
then I guess any path you choose and any
answers you get will do-?

So many people find religion useful for answering
difficult questions about life and death

I wonder what you mean by an "answer". To me that sounds like
deciding to believe something that satisfies them.
I suppose it is an answer in that sense.

\Like "Who stole the cookies?"
being answered with "The bad monkey did it," is
an answer, however little it is real.

Sure, religions generally have some sort
of value, tho many / most / all may do far
more harm than good, in my opinion.

 

[dybmh]

desu ka... to me

I mean it in the sense of. "Is alchemy worth pursuing?"
(if one wishes to achieve anything in chemistry)
Plainly not.

It's an interesting question. Thought provoking. I like it

May I respond?

 

[Audie]

It's an interesting question. Thought provoking. I like it

May I respond?

Please do.

 

[dybmh]

Is Alchemy worth pursuing?

Maybe not on its own. But just like learning two languages, when a person learns a second language, they end up learning a lot about their native spoken language. Pursuing the second completely different language has value even if it is never used conversationally.

This would be like pursuing Alchemy along side Chemistry. Even if the pursuit never rendered Gold from Tin, the pursuit would be valuable in comparing and contrasting with Chemistry. The value comes from asking the question, "Why didn't this work?"

But pursuing only Alchemy, and never learning Chemistry. Maybe the pursuit isn't valuable... IF the measure of value is making gold.

Maybe there's more to it than the material gain?

From an emotional perspective, if it's fun; it has value. If it is somehow comforting, it has value.

Not for everyone, not even for most. But if someone, for example, finds comfort in being a rebel, finds comfort doing things their own way, finds satisfaction in working on an impossible goal. If Alchemy is somehow inspiring for them, then it has value.

Or, what if pursuing Alchemy is a distraction from troubling or painful circumstances that happened in their life. Aka... as a hobby. Then pursuing Alchemy has value. The value comes from the distraction from the pressures and stresses of life or loss.

What I'm saying is, Alchemy has value depending on context, depending on goals, depending on whether it is pursued in spite of Chemistry or along side it. It really depends on the person doesn't it? What are the person's goals? What are the person's needs? What does the person value?

Whether or not the pursuit of Alchemy has value depends on the person.

That's how I feel about Alchemy. Maybe its pursuit has value for some people. Especially if it is pursued in tandem with or leads to the pursuit of a career in science. But not just for that. Even pursuing Alchemy on its own has value. Just not for material gain.

 

[Audie]

Is Alchemy worth pursuing?

Maybe not on it's own. But just like learning two languages, when a person learns a second language, they end up learning a lot about their native spoken language. Pursuing the second completely different language has value even if it is never used conversationally.

This would be like pursuing Alchemy along side Chemistry. Even if the pursuit never rendered Gold from Tin, the pursuit would be valuable in comparing and contrasting with Chemistry. The value comes from asking the question, "Why didn't this work?"

But pursuing only Alchemy, and never learning Chemistry. Maybe the pursuit isn't valuable... IF the measure of value is making gold.

Maybe there's more to it than the material gain?

From an emotional perspective, if it's fun; it has value. If it is somehow comforting, it has value.

Not for everyone, not even for most. But if someone, for example, finds comfort in being a rebel, finds comfort doing things their own way, finds satisfaction in working on an impossible goal. If Alchemy is somehow inspiring for them, then it has value.

Or, what if pursuing Alchemy is a distraction from troubling or painful circumstances that happened in their life. Aka... as a hobby. Then pursuing Alchemy has value. The value comes from the distraction from the pressures and stresses of life or loss.

What I'm saying is, Alchemy has value depending on context, depending on goals, depending on whether it is pursued in spite of Chemistry or along side it. It really depends on the person doesn't it? What are the person's goals? What are the persons needs? What does the person value?

Whether or not the pursuit of Alchemy has value depends on the person.

That's how I feel about Alchemy. Maybe it's pursuit has value for some people. Especially if it is pursued in tandem with or leads to the pursuit of a career in science. But not just for that. Even pursuing Alchemy on it's own has value. Just not for material gain.

Yes, good, eminently sane and credible.
I actually think alchemy should be taught
in intro to chem, as it relates to the history of
chemistry, and as a lesson in pseudoscience.

If a person is unrealistic, does not understand
that, they could go far astray in the study-as did many
including no less an eminence than Newton.
Whatever they got out of it, it was not much of that
bang for the buck such as we hear about.

Now in regard to this comment-

So many people find religion useful for answering
difficult questions about life and death

Alchemy is not useful for answering questions about chemistry.

Likewise, religion is not useful for answering difficult
questions about life and death.

Some may well think that they have been provided
with the answers.

Like the dumb little girl in Peanuts who was so
excited when she figured out arithmetic!

"two times to is twotie two, three times three
is threetie three!"

 

[dybmh]

Yes, good, eminently sane and credible.

Thank you.

 

[Shadow Link]

Hello everyone!

Hello!

You might, btw, just ry taking two aspirins.
Aspirin does affect the nervous system;
we all have times of lying awake, mind
zooming about. One one such night,
the thought "aspirin affects the nervous system"
came up. i got up and took two.

Everyone I have suggested that to has found
it works great. May not apply in your case, but ,
it can sure help to get a good nights sleep, if it
does work occasionally.

I take two baby aspirin every night and I feel better in the morning. Helps with the grogginess.