"New Heavens and New Earth" - Why Destroy the Old?

[Hawkins]

Earth serves no purpose but for people with freewill to divide. To put it another way it is a crop field for God to grow His souls. After the harvest, that is with Elect brought to Heaven, earth is no longer useful. Then it will return back to its natural state. A natural state of a planet is like Mars or Neptune. Google up how they should look like!

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Earth serves no purpose but for people with freewill to divide. To put it another way it is a crop field for God to grow His souls. After the harvest, that is with Elect brought to Heaven, earth is no longer useful. Then it will return back to its natural state. A natural state of a planet is like Mars or Neptune. Google up how they should look like!

Psalms 115:16; Isaiah 45:18; Psalms 104:5

 

[moorea944]

Earth serves no purpose but for people with freewill to divide. To put it another way it is a crop field for God to grow His souls. After the harvest, that is with Elect brought to Heaven, earth is no longer useful. Then it will return back to its natural state. A natural state of a planet is like Mars or Neptune. Google up how they should look like!

Earth serves no purpose....

Actually, it does. God says that He made it for us and His creation was not in vain. We also know what God wants to do with the earth. Numbers 14 & Hab 2 tells us. He wants to someday fill the whole earth with His Glory. And the same with the knowledge of the Lord.

We are also told (Dan 2) that his son is coming back to earth to set up a kingdom that will eventually fill the whole earth. "Thy Kingdom come" , "The meek will inherit the earth", etc . Most of the parables are about a coming kingdom.

After the harvest, that is with Elect brought to Heaven

Is there a verse on that one? Dont see it anywhere.

earth is no longer useful.

It will always be usefull. That is where Christ will be with the glorified saints to rule in the kingdom on earth.

 

[Deeje]

It's often the most arrogant people who defend themselves by saying they're just more confident. Much like the difference between assertiveness and aggressiveness and compassion versus niceness, confidence is internal, and arrogance is external.

Christ had internal confidence, and unfortunately much like your organization, the Pharisees had external confidence. The external confidence of the Pharisees was perfectly exemplified by Deeje's remark, "We discerned many things that Christendom did not". Shalom..

But of course there is no "external confidence" expressed by this poster....So what is expressed by you james2ko? Is it assertiveness or aggressiveness....Confidence or arrogance? I can't tell.

Pot....meet kettle.

 

[james2ko]

But of course there is no "external confidence" expressed by this poster....

We shouldn't deny what is obvious to see.

So what is expressed by you james2ko? Is it assertiveness or aggressiveness....Confidence or arrogance? I can't tell.

Pot....meet kettle.

I'm not surprised. The Pharisees were also blinded to it. I have the same indignation toward you Christ had against the self-righteous, condescending, elitist, hypocritical Pharisees who "thought" they were the only ones with God's truth.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

God affirmed His purpose for the Earth @ Isaiah 45:18, 'God wants it inhabited.' And life on Earth needs the oceans to survive. So when Revelation 21:1 states "the sea is no more," it can't be literal. It is symbolic of the wicked......Isaiah 57:20 likens the "wicked" to the "sea".

The wicked will be "no more." In other words, Jehovah God's purpose for the Earth (Matthew 6:9-10) will be fulfilled. --Proverbs 2:20-22; Revelation 11:18; Isaiah 11:6-9

Edit: if "sea" was literal, Revelation 21:1 would (probably) say "the seas are no more."

 

[james2ko]

God affirmed His purpose for the Earth @ Isaiah 45:18, 'God wants it inhabited.'

1. And it will be inhabited, just not in the form we understand it today. It will truly be a "new" heavens [atmosphere] and "new" earth

And life on Earth needs the oceans to survive. So when Revelation 21:1 states "the sea is no more," it can't be literal. It is symbolic of the wicked......Isaiah 57:20 likens the "wicked" to the "sea".

2. It also needs the sun to survive in our current form. Yet we find it will also be eliminated and replaced with a "new" light source (Revelation 22:5). It will be a "new" type of atmosphere where oceans and the sun are not necessary for life to exist.

The wicked will be "no more." In other words, Jehovah God's purpose for the Earth (Matthew 6:9-10) will be fulfilled. --Proverbs 2:20-22; Revelation 11:18; Isaiah 11:6-9

3. I agree.

Edit if "sea" was literal, Revelation 21:1 would (probably) say "the seas are no more."

4. The simile in Isaiah 57:20 you quoted above actually likens the wicked to the "troubled sea". If Rev 21:1 was truly symbolic of the wicked, it would have stated, "...no more troubled sea."

 

[allright]

God chooses to create a new Heaven and new earth because both of the old have been touched by sin

 

[Hockeycowboy]

1. And it will be inhabited, just not in the form we understand it today.

Why would life take a different form? What purpose would that serve?

Isaiah 11:6-8 indicates lions will still be lions, bulls will still be bulls....no reason to change them.

Revelation 21:3, "the tent of God is with mankind." No form-change indicated there.

2. It also needs the sun to survive in our current form. Yet we find it will also be eliminated and replaced with a "new" light source (Revelation 22:5). It will be a "new" type of atmosphere where oceans and the sun are not necessary for life to exist.

But again, why? There's no reason to get rid of the sun!

Revelation -- given to John by Jesus, btw -- is filled with symbolism. You don't think the four horsemen are tangible creatures riding real horses, do you? I'm sure you don't.

3. I agree.

Great!

4. The simile in Isaiah 57:20 you quoted above actually likens the wicked to the "troubled sea". If Rev 21:1 was truly symbolic of the wicked, it would have stated, "...no more troubled sea."

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this.

But I must say, if what Deeje and I state comes across as arrogance, we're sorry. It's not based on our personal merit. Actually, it stems from humility, because we willingly accept that we couldn't find the answers on our own. Like the Ethiopian eunuch. (Acts of the Apostles 8:30-31) The answers ultimately come from Jehovah (Luke 10:21) through His Son Jesus, who in turn gives this knowledge to his "brothers". (Matthew 25:40; Hebrews 2:11) The Apostles were part of that group.

And we recognize we were not chosen to be part of that class.

Hope you have a good day!

 

[Hawkins]

Actually, it does. God says that He made it for us and His creation was not in vain. We also know what God wants to do with the earth. Numbers 14 & Hab 2 tells us. He wants to someday fill the whole earth with His Glory. And the same with the knowledge of the Lord.

We are also told (Dan 2) that his son is coming back to earth to set up a kingdom that will eventually fill the whole earth. "Thy Kingdom come" , "The meek will inherit the earth", etc . Most of the parables are about a coming kingdom.



Is there a verse on that one? Dont see it anywhere.



It will always be usefull. That is where Christ will be with the glorified saints to rule in the kingdom on earth.

Do you mean to say that the old earth will be running in parallel with the new earth?

 

[Hawkins]

Psalms 115:16; Isaiah 45:18; Psalms 104:5

It's no point to call them old and new if it's the same place.

 

[james2ko]

Why would life take a different form? What purpose would that serve?

1. To fulfill the prophecies you posted earlier about the earth abiding forever and being inhabited. Assuming the new heavens and earth will operate and be inhabited they same exact way it is today would be inconsistent with all things being made new (Revelation 21:5).

Isaiah 11:6-8 indicates lions will still be lions, bulls will still be bulls....no reason to change them.

2. I believe Isaiah 11:6-8 refers to the millennial rule of Christ on earth, where man and beasts will remain in their current form with a different nature . The change in form (not exactly sure what form perhaps flesh and bone like the resurrected Jesus' body) will occur with the advent of the new heavens and new earth sometime after the 1,000 reign, after the earth is purged by fire (2 Pet 3:10). Making it pure enough for Jehovah to dwell in. Which leads to my next point.

Revelation 21:3, "the tent of God is with mankind." No form-change indicated there.

3. Do you really think God will dwell with corrupt man on a corrupt earth (Romans 8:21) unless there were significant changes in both?

But again, why? There's no reason to get rid of the sun!

4. Because Jehovah states it will no longer be needed (Revelation 22:5). Should we demand from Jehovah any other reason?

Revelation -- given to John by Jesus, btw -- is filled with symbolism. You don't think the four horsemen are tangible creatures riding real horses, do you? I'm sure you don't.

5. Do you think the living creatures John and Ezekiel saw in heaven were "real" (Revelation 4:5; Ezekiel 1:5)?

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this.

6. We sure can.

But I must say, if what Deeje and I state comes across as arrogance, we're sorry. It's not based on our personal merit. Actually, it stems from humility, because we willingly accept that we couldn't find the answers on our own. Like the Ethiopian eunuch. (Acts of the Apostles 8:30-31) The answers ultimately come from Jehovah (Luke 10:21) through His Son Jesus, who in turn gives this knowledge to his "brothers". (Matthew 25:40; Hebrews 2:11) The Apostles were part of that group. And we recognize we were not chosen to be part of that class.

7. True humility admits they don't have all the answers (1 Corinthians 13:9,12). Your organization falsely believes they are the only ones with all the right answers. I've proven several JW's wrong on this and other forums . So I know first hand they don't have all the right answers and are not Jehovah's only organization being used on this earth.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Do you really think God will dwell with corrupt man on a corrupt earth (Romans 8:21) unless there were significant changes in both?

Man is corrupt. The planet isn't -- at least, it's fixable. So wicked men will be "no more". And those "ruining the earth".

Because Jehovah states it will no longer be needed (Revelation 22:5). Should we demand from Jehovah any other reason?

But truth is reasonable....it makes sense. And Hebrews 1 indicates there will come a time when the physical heavens, which includes the Sun, will "wear out". That time is far in the future!

Do you think the living creatures John and Ezekiel saw in heaven were "real" (Revelation 4:5; Ezekiel 1:5)?

They were visions. Did Ezekiel see real "sapphire stone"? No, these things "looked like" what was described.

True humility admits they don't have all the answers (1 Corinthians 13:9,12). Your organization falsely believes they are the only ones with all the right answers. I've proven several JW's wrong on this and other forums . So I know first hand they don't have all the right answers and are not Jehovah's only organization being used on this earth.

Was Jesus humble? Certainly! Yet He had *most of* the answers. -- Matthew 24:36

Whether you've proven several JW's wrong or not, is subjective.

Our Organization has said many times that we don't have all the answers. Just last month, on our broadcasting channel, Bro. Splane made that very statement.
But I know one thing, it's the only Organization solely worshipping Jehovah, through Jesus as Savior, High Priest and Mediator, and displaying love and unity by obeying Christ in being separate from the world, loving their brothers and enemies. And in preaching.

Do you know of another? I know of none. Most other religions get involved in their respective nations' wars. (What does that tend to prove? - 1 John 3:10-15) And the few that don't, if there are any, fail to meet the other criteria.

Peace to you, my cousin.

 

[Neo Deist]

New Earth could be an entirely different planet somewhere in the vastness of the universe, that God created to be paradise. No seas or oceans, and we are able to survive there.

Or, and most likely, since the biblical writers did not have telescopes, space shuttles or planetary rovers, they were writing from an earth centric point of view...which has long since been proven wrong.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

It's no point to call them old and new if it's the same place.

Revelation 21:5 says (God's words): "Look! I am making all things new."

Not 'all new things.'

Understanding this as its read harmonizes with, and doesn't contradict, those Scriptures.

 

[james2ko]

Man is corrupt. The planet isn't -- at least, it's fixable. So wicked men will be "no more". And those "ruining the earth". Whether you've proven several JW's wrong or not, is subjective.

Rom 8:21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.​

1 The planet is part of the creation that is currently corrupt. Proving JW's wrong is no longer subjective.

But truth is reasonable....it makes sense. And Hebrews 1 indicates there will come a time when the physical heavens, which includes the Sun, will "wear out". That time is far in the future!

2 That actually proves my reasonable and sensible point. Jehovah says the old light (Hebrews 1:10-11) will be replaced by the new light (Rev 22:5). At least you got the future part right.

They were visions. Did Ezekiel see real "sapphire stone"? No, these things "looked like" what was described.

3 Your assertion suggests John saw something that "looked like" a throne, or something that "looked like" 24 elders wearing what "looked like " white robes and those things on their heads "looked like" crowns of gold. That is an unreasonable implication.

Was Jesus humble? Certainly! Yet He had *most of* the answers. -- Matthew 24:36 Our Organization has said many times that we don't have all the answers. Just last month, on our broadcasting channel, Bro. Splane made that very statement. But I know one thing, it's the only Organization solely worshipping Jehovah, through Jesus as Savior, High Priest and Mediator, and displaying love and unity by obeying Christ in being separate from the world, loving their brothers and enemies. And in preaching.

4 I guess the vast majority of JW's I've encountered haven't gotten the memo. And no, you are not the only organization solely worshipping God and displaying love and unity by being separate from the world, loving their brothers and enemies in preaching.

Do you know of another? I know of none. Most other religions get involved in their respective nations' wars. (What does that tend to prove? - 1 John 3:10-15) And the few that don't, if there are any, fail to meet the other criteria.

5 You have entered the realm of external confidence . I knew it wouldn't take long. Just took you a little longer than Deeje. I think it's programmed in your DNA..

 

[Hockeycowboy]

New Earth could be an entirely different planet somewhere in the vastness of the universe, that God created to be paradise. No seas or oceans, and we are able to survive there.

Or, and most likely, since the biblical writers did not have telescopes, space shuttles or planetary rovers, they were writing from an earth centric point of view...which has long since been proven wrong.

New Earth could be an entirely different planet somewhere in the vastness of the universe

But why destroy this planet? It's beautiful! And has everything we need.

What needs to go are those who want to hurt others. With a "new" society, governed by a "new" Ruler, who can solve all of man's problems, even sickness and death. - Revelation 21:3-4; Matthew 6:10

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Rom 8:21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.​

1 The planet is part of the creation that is currently corrupt. Proving JW's wrong is no longer subjective.



2 That actually proves my reasonable and sensible point. Jehovah says the old light (Hebrews 1:10-11) will be replaced by the new light (Rev 22:5). At least you got the future part right.



3 Your assertion suggests John saw something that "looked like" a throne, or something that "looked like" 24 elders wearing what "looked like " white robes and those things on their heads "looked like" crowns of gold. That is an unreasonable implication.



4 I guess the vast majority of JW's I've encountered haven't gotten the memo. And no, you are not the only organization solely worshipping God and displaying love and unity by being separate from the world, loving their brothers and enemies in preaching.



5 You have entered the realm of external confidence . I knew it wouldn't take long. Just took you a little longer than Deeje. I think it's programmed in your DNA..

The points I made, stand on their own merit. You didn't prove anything differently, its still subjective.

And I asked, "Do you know another (organization)?" You gave me no alternative.

Or is my understanding regarding John's ID of who are "the children of God and the children of the Devil", faulty?

Which religions measure up?

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Rom 8:21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
1 The planet is part of the creation that is currently corrupt. Proving JW's wrong is no longer subjective.

Really?? The planet Earth is under "bondage to corruption"? It will be one of "the children of God"? No, James....creation there is referring to people; we are under bondage to sin and its result, death. We will be called 'God's children.'

Still subjective, my friend. (From your posts, I think you'd like to incite me to say something belittling. - Proverbs 15:1)

 

[Neo Deist]

But why destroy this planet? It's beautiful! And has everything we need.

What needs to go are those who want to hurt others. With a "new" society, governed by a "new" Ruler, who can solve all of man's problems, even sickness and death. - Revelation 21:3-4; Matthew 6:10

Why do children die from starvation, disease and adult violence?