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New finds ad another intermediary species in the evolution of birds

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
There is an increasing number of fossils finds and research on older finds of intermediate species between dinosaurs and birds being found in China and Germany in the slates deposited in the volcanic sediments associated with large lakes in a volcanic region. The release of gases kills the avian-dinosaurs and birds and sealed them in the rapid deposition of volcanic ash . sediments. These discoveries are being found in the slates with the oldest being more like dinosaurs and avian-dinosaurs, and progressively in the younger volcanic ash deposits the avian-dinosaurs become more bird like and ultimately bird fossils are found. The following shows the evolution of the Archaeopteryx fossil becoming more bird like in the younger slate deposits.

From: Paleontologists Discover New Species of Archaeopteryx | Paleontology | Sci-News.com

Paleontologists Discover New Species of Archaeopteryx

Archaeopteryx was first described as the ‘missing link’ between reptiles and birds in 1861 — and is now regarded as the link between dinosaurs and birds. Only 12 specimens have ever been found and all are from the late Jurassic of Bavaria, Germany, dating back approximately 150 million years. Now, Dr. Martin Kundrát from the University of Pavol Jozef Šafárik and co-authors have identified a new species of Archaeopteryx — named A. albersdoerferi — that is closer to modern birds in evolutionary terms.


Reconstruction of Archaeopteryx albersdoerferi. Image credit: Zhao Chuang / Martin Kundrát.

Using synchrotron microtomography, Dr. Kundrát and colleagues examined one of 12 Archaeopteryx specimens, known as ‘specimen number eight.’

“This Archaeopteryx individual is physically much closer to a modern bird than it is to a reptile,” the paleontologists said.

“Therefore, it is evolutionary distinctive and different enough to be described as a new species — Archaeopteryx albersdoerferi.”

Some of the differing skeletal characteristics of Archaeopteryx albersdoerferiinclude the fusion of cranial bones, different pectoral girdle (chest) and wing elements, and a reinforced configuration of carpals and metacarpals (hand) bones.

These characteristics are seen more in modern flying birds and are not found in the older Archaeopteryx lithographica species, which more resembles reptiles and dinosaurs.

Specimen number eight is the youngest of all the 12 known specimens by approximately half a million years. This age difference in comparison to the other specimens is a key factor in describing it as a new species.

“By digitally dissecting the fossil we found that this specimen differed from all of the others,” said co-author Dr. John Nudds, from the School of Earth and Environmental Sciences at the University of Manchester.

“It possessed skeletal adaptations which would have resulted in much more efficient flight.”

“In a nutshell we have discovered what Archaeopteryx lithographica evolved into — i.e. a more advanced bird, better adapted to flying — and we have described this as a new species of Archaeopteryx.”

“This is the first time that numerous bones and teeth of Archaeopteryx were viewed from all aspects including exposure of their inner structure,” Dr. Kundrát said.

“The use of synchrotron microtomography was the only way to study the specimen as it is heavily compressed with many fragmented bones partly or completely hidden in limestone.”

“Whenever a missing link is discovered, this merely creates two further missing links — what came before, and what came after,” Dr. Nudds said.

“What came before was discovered in 1996 with the feathered dinosaurs in China. Our new species is what came after. It confirms Archaeopteryx as the first bird, and not just one of a number of feathered theropod dinosaurs, which some authors have suggested recently. You could say that it puts Archaeopteryx back on its perch as the first bird.”

The discovery is reported in the Historical Biology, an international journal of paleobiology.
 
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shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Why are there so many new fossil discoveries in paleontology particularly among dinosaurs to birds, and in whales and other sea mammals?

(1) We know where to look today! The sediments that are rapidly deposited are by far the best, because they quickly entomb complete animals before predation and decomposition. Volcanic ash is best and many animals and plants are quickly buried. Shallow coastal and delta deposits are also good, where the ancestors of whales and sea mammals are found.

(2) High technology and computer models for comparative anatomy. For example: Rocks can be screen by -ray and ultra sound technology and modeled first without breaking the rock.

(3) Increased urban development in China has opened up many new sites to fossil excavation In some building sites hundreds of new species have been discovered, and much has not been published yet.

Paleontology | Building boom uncovers buried dinosaurs, makes a star

(4) More intensive research and excavation of important formations, particularly volcanic deposits in China,
 
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Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
There is an increasing number of fossils finds and research on older finds of intermediate species between dinosaurs and birds being found in China and Germany in the slates deposited in the volcanic sediments associated with large lakes in a volcanic region. The release of gases kills the avian-dinosaurs and birds and sealed them in the rapid deposition of volcanic ash . sediments. These discoveries are being found in the slates with the oldest being more like dinosaurs and avian-dinosaurs, and progressively in the younger volcanic ash deposits the avian-dinosaurs become more bird like and ultimately bird fossils are found. The following shows the evolution of the Archaeopteryx fossil becoming more bird like in the younger slate deposits.

From: Paleontologists Discover New Species of Archaeopteryx | Paleontology | Sci-News.com

Paleontologists Discover New Species of Archaeopteryx

Archaeopteryx was first described as the ‘missing link’ between reptiles and birds in 1861 — and is now regarded as the link between dinosaurs and birds. Only 12 specimens have ever been found and all are from the late Jurassic of Bavaria, Germany, dating back approximately 150 million years. Now, Dr. Martin Kundrát from the University of Pavol Jozef Šafárik and co-authors have identified a new species of Archaeopteryx — named A. albersdoerferi — that is closer to modern birds in evolutionary terms.


Reconstruction of Archaeopteryx albersdoerferi. Image credit: Zhao Chuang / Martin Kundrát.

Using synchrotron microtomography, Dr. Kundrát and colleagues examined one of 12 Archaeopteryx specimens, known as ‘specimen number eight.’

“This Archaeopteryx individual is physically much closer to a modern bird than it is to a reptile,” the paleontologists said.

“Therefore, it is evolutionary distinctive and different enough to be described as a new species — Archaeopteryx albersdoerferi.”

Some of the differing skeletal characteristics of Archaeopteryx albersdoerferiinclude the fusion of cranial bones, different pectoral girdle (chest) and wing elements, and a reinforced configuration of carpals and metacarpals (hand) bones.

These characteristics are seen more in modern flying birds and are not found in the older Archaeopteryx lithographica species, which more resembles reptiles and dinosaurs.

Specimen number eight is the youngest of all the 12 known specimens by approximately half a million years. This age difference in comparison to the other specimens is a key factor in describing it as a new species.

“By digitally dissecting the fossil we found that this specimen differed from all of the others,” said co-author Dr. John Nudds, from the School of Earth and Environmental Sciences at the University of Manchester.

“It possessed skeletal adaptations which would have resulted in much more efficient flight.”

“In a nutshell we have discovered what Archaeopteryx lithographica evolved into — i.e. a more advanced bird, better adapted to flying — and we have described this as a new species of Archaeopteryx.”

“This is the first time that numerous bones and teeth of Archaeopteryx were viewed from all aspects including exposure of their inner structure,” Dr. Kundrát said.

“The use of synchrotron microtomography was the only way to study the specimen as it is heavily compressed with many fragmented bones partly or completely hidden in limestone.”

“Whenever a missing link is discovered, this merely creates two further missing links — what came before, and what came after,” Dr. Nudds said.

“What came before was discovered in 1996 with the feathered dinosaurs in China. Our new species is what came after. It confirms Archaeopteryx as the first bird, and not just one of a number of feathered theropod dinosaurs, which some authors have suggested recently. You could say that it puts Archaeopteryx back on its perch as the first bird.”

The discovery is reported in the Historical Biology, an international journal of paleobiology.

I wonder what Alan Feduccia will have to say?
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
I wonder what Alan Feduccia will have to say?

It would be interesting to hear from him about the recent discoveries, since his proposal for the evolution of birds is based on older knowledge. Nonetheless he proposes that dinosaurs and birds do share an earlier common ancestor.

From: Alan Feduccia - Wikipedia

"Feduccia opposes the scientific consensus that birds originated from and are deeply nested within Theropoda, and are therefore living theropod dinosaurs.[4][5][6][7] He has argued for an alternative theory in which birds share a common stem-ancestor with theropod dinosaurs among more basal archosaurian lineages, with birds originating from small arboreal archosaurs in the Triassic."

I believe it is miss leading to say birds are 'living Theropod dinosaurs.' The view that birds in one form or another shared a common ancestor with dinosaurs is pretty much universally in agreement among paleontology scientists.
 

robocop (actually)

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
There is an increasing number of fossils finds and research on older finds of intermediate species between dinosaurs and birds being found in China and Germany in the slates deposited in the volcanic sediments associated with large lakes in a volcanic region. The release of gases kills the avian-dinosaurs and birds and sealed them in the rapid deposition of volcanic ash . sediments. These discoveries are being found in the slates with the oldest being more like dinosaurs and avian-dinosaurs, and progressively in the younger volcanic ash deposits the avian-dinosaurs become more bird like and ultimately bird fossils are found. The following shows the evolution of the Archaeopteryx fossil becoming more bird like in the younger slate deposits.

From: Paleontologists Discover New Species of Archaeopteryx | Paleontology | Sci-News.com

Paleontologists Discover New Species of Archaeopteryx

Archaeopteryx was first described as the ‘missing link’ between reptiles and birds in 1861 — and is now regarded as the link between dinosaurs and birds. Only 12 specimens have ever been found and all are from the late Jurassic of Bavaria, Germany, dating back approximately 150 million years. Now, Dr. Martin Kundrát from the University of Pavol Jozef Šafárik and co-authors have identified a new species of Archaeopteryx — named A. albersdoerferi — that is closer to modern birds in evolutionary terms.


Reconstruction of Archaeopteryx albersdoerferi. Image credit: Zhao Chuang / Martin Kundrát.

Using synchrotron microtomography, Dr. Kundrát and colleagues examined one of 12 Archaeopteryx specimens, known as ‘specimen number eight.’

“This Archaeopteryx individual is physically much closer to a modern bird than it is to a reptile,” the paleontologists said.

“Therefore, it is evolutionary distinctive and different enough to be described as a new species — Archaeopteryx albersdoerferi.”

Some of the differing skeletal characteristics of Archaeopteryx albersdoerferiinclude the fusion of cranial bones, different pectoral girdle (chest) and wing elements, and a reinforced configuration of carpals and metacarpals (hand) bones.

These characteristics are seen more in modern flying birds and are not found in the older Archaeopteryx lithographica species, which more resembles reptiles and dinosaurs.

Specimen number eight is the youngest of all the 12 known specimens by approximately half a million years. This age difference in comparison to the other specimens is a key factor in describing it as a new species.

“By digitally dissecting the fossil we found that this specimen differed from all of the others,” said co-author Dr. John Nudds, from the School of Earth and Environmental Sciences at the University of Manchester.

“It possessed skeletal adaptations which would have resulted in much more efficient flight.”

“In a nutshell we have discovered what Archaeopteryx lithographica evolved into — i.e. a more advanced bird, better adapted to flying — and we have described this as a new species of Archaeopteryx.”

“This is the first time that numerous bones and teeth of Archaeopteryx were viewed from all aspects including exposure of their inner structure,” Dr. Kundrát said.

“The use of synchrotron microtomography was the only way to study the specimen as it is heavily compressed with many fragmented bones partly or completely hidden in limestone.”

“Whenever a missing link is discovered, this merely creates two further missing links — what came before, and what came after,” Dr. Nudds said.

“What came before was discovered in 1996 with the feathered dinosaurs in China. Our new species is what came after. It confirms Archaeopteryx as the first bird, and not just one of a number of feathered theropod dinosaurs, which some authors have suggested recently. You could say that it puts Archaeopteryx back on its perch as the first bird.”

The discovery is reported in the Historical Biology, an international journal of paleobiology.

Prokaryote wrote this:

"Firstly, speciation of Archaeopteryx provides no good evidence for dinosaur into bird evolution as speciation remains in the same genus and Archaeopteryx was 100% bird. For that you need far more evidence, in the article you sent it even mentions this saying that a before and after need to be found. Your article states that before was a feathered dinosaur (as Archaeopteryx was supposedly the first bird), but there is no link between feathered dinosaur and bird particularly in the structures of bird's bones and how they could've formed which was the question I actually asked."
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Prokaryote wrote this:

"Firstly, speciation of Archaeopteryx provides no good evidence for dinosaur into bird evolution as speciation remains in the same genus and Archaeopteryx was 100% bird. For that you need far more evidence, in the article you sent it even mentions this saying that a before and after need to be found. Your article states that before was a feathered dinosaur (as Archaeopteryx was supposedly the first bird), but there is no link between feathered dinosaur and bird particularly in the structures of bird's bones and how they could've formed which was the question I actually asked."

'Arguing strictly from ignorance' provides no new information to the discussion. This is not meaningful.

Who is Prokaryote? Reference please?

Archaeopteryx has never been considered nor classified as bird. The research identified more than one species of Archaeopteryx as intermediaries between dinosaurs and birds.

Individual species represented by fossils like Archaeopteryx are never considered evidence in and of themselves for bird evolution. Your missing previous reference cited concerning intermediaries between dinosaurs and birds.
 

robocop (actually)

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
'Arguing strictly from ignorance' provides no new information to the discussion. This is not meaningful.

Who is Prokaryote? Reference please?

Archaeopteryx has never been considered nor classified as bird. The research identified more than one species of Archaeopteryx as intermediaries between dinosaurs and birds.

Individual species represented by fossils like Archaeopteryx are never considered evidence in and of themselves for bird evolution. Your missing previous reference cited concerning intermediaries between dinosaurs and birds.

Prokaryote is my friend, just letting you talk back and forth to see what happens.
 

robocop (actually)

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
'Arguing strictly from ignorance' provides no new information to the discussion. This is not meaningful.

Who is Prokaryote? Reference please?

Archaeopteryx has never been considered nor classified as bird. The research identified more than one species of Archaeopteryx as intermediaries between dinosaurs and birds.

Individual species represented by fossils like Archaeopteryx are never considered evidence in and of themselves for bird evolution. Your missing previous reference cited concerning intermediaries between dinosaurs and birds.
Prokaryote really wants to say this:

Please read all of this, don't skim over it!

Firstly I don't think by asking you how bird bones were to evolve is arguing in ignorance, and frankly you haven't answered that point as Archaeopteryx had hollowed out (but structured and strong) bones and therefore it can't be the link for the evolution of the bird bone (which was my initial question). And I am bringing new information to the table in almost every post such as my last one where I brought up RNA gene editing in cephalopods or bringing up irreducible complexity. There is information on the table and fresh information at that its up to you to respond to the information. As for my missing reference if you read it through (not skim reading it) then you would have realised I said your reference. If you don't know your own reference that you posted then I'm very concerned for you, but I suspect you just skim read my post. Secondly, obviously researchers wouldn't classify it as a bird even if the evidence pointed to it being a bird because it is the closest thing to a link they have and so they would classify it as so. Archaeopteryx has perching feet, hollow bones, wings capable of flight (with wing bones and feathers very similar to modern birds, allowing it to do so). Archaeopteryx is currently now officially classified as a flying dinosaur because of claws, a bony tail and teeth but the defining characteristics put Archaeopteryx squarely as a bird. I would like to here your response to the irreducible complexity (of the eye, tears, circulatory system and flagella. Not just the flagella) as the wikipedia article is flawed (as I pointed out in my previous post). I would also like to hear a response on the RNA gene editing in cephalopods and abiogenesis (I've been waiting for this one a while but i'm not really that concerned about you replying to it as you don't like old discussions).

References:

Archaeopteryx -

(Secular sources)

Archaeopteryx flew like a pheasant

Archaeopteryx no longer first bird : Nature News

(Creationist responses, please read these as well!)

Archaeopteryx Is a Bird. . . Again

If It Looked Like a Bird and Flew Like a Bird … It Must Be a Dinosaur!

I am quite busy at the moment so please don't expect an immediate answer.

@Prokaryote
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Prokaryote really wants to say this:

Please read all of this, don't skim over it!

Firstly I don't think by asking you how bird bones were to evolve is arguing in ignorance, and frankly you haven't answered that point as Archaeopteryx had hollowed out (but structured and strong) bones and therefore it can't be the link for the evolution of the bird bone (which was my initial question).

I did not say that your asking me how bird bones were to evolve was an arguing from ignorance. Your arguing from ignorance is expecting the complete evolution from one reference, and yes, not all the questions have been answered, and you have not read all the references I have posted here and will post in the future,

And I am bringing new information to the table in almost every post such as my last one where I brought up RNA gene editing in cephalopods or bringing up irreducible complexity.

Bringing up irreducible complexity? Your claims of irreducible complexity cannot be falsified by any scientific hypothesis, and yes it is an 'argument from ignorance' and NOT science. Any proposal of irreducible complexity must rely on the negative claim of missing information, which cannot be falsified.

There is information on the table and fresh information at that its up to you to respond to the information. As for my missing reference if you read it through (not skim reading it) then you would have realised I said your reference. If you don't know your own reference that you posted then I'm very concerned for you, but I suspect you just skim read my post. Secondly, obviously researchers wouldn't classify it as a bird even if the evidence pointed to it being a bird because it is the closest thing to a link they have and so they would classify it as so. Archaeopteryx has perching feet, hollow bones, wings capable of flight (with wing bones and feathers very similar to modern birds, allowing it to do so). Archaeopteryx is currently now officially classified as a flying dinosaur because of claws, a bony tail and teeth but the defining characteristics put Archaeopteryx squarely as a bird. I would like to here your response to the irreducible complexity (of the eye, tears, circulatory system and flagella. Not just the flagella) as the wikipedia article is flawed (as I pointed out in my previous post). I would also like to hear a response on the RNA gene editing in cephalopods and abiogenesis (I've been waiting for this one a while but i'm not really that concerned about you replying to it as you don't like old discussions).

References:

Archaeopteryx -

(Secular sources)

Archaeopteryx flew like a pheasant

Archaeopteryx no longer first bird : Nature News

(Creationist responses, please read these as well!)

Archaeopteryx Is a Bird. . . Again

If It Looked Like a Bird and Flew Like a Bird … It Must Be a Dinosaur!

I am quite busy at the moment so please don't expect an immediate answer.

@Prokaryote

You are apparently not on this cite capable of reading all the sources I have cited.

First the reference I was referring was not the one concerning the archaeopteryx. The two species of archaeopteryx in the article I cited are only two of the intermediate species. The following describes another previously cited. The arvhaeopteryx is not classified as a bird in the animal classification system.

'Messy' New Species of Dinosaur-Era Bird Discovered

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/...species/01_new_species_181020.adapt.768.1.jpg

There are also references to the evidence of the evolution of lungs. Have you read those.You have the odd expectation that I have to have all the answers to the questions of the evolution of birds, and that is ridiculous to the extreme.

Your secular articles are OK as far as they went, and yes there are a number of intermediate fossil species discovered in the evolutionary sequence between non-avian dinosaurs, avian dinosaurs and birds.

The point of these threads concerning the evolution of birds is to report and discuss the recent advancements and discoveries concerning the evolution of the birds. Your demands to answer all questions and problems concerning the evolution of birds is out of place in this thread.

Also, I will have to disregard your references from Answers in Genesis as not secular nor a scientific source.


More to follow.
 
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Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Just another archaeopteryx? I was hoping they'd finally found the crocoduck.

Crocoduckus catpotatoensis
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Just another archaeopteryx? I was hoping they'd finally found the crocoduck.

Crocoduckus catpotatoensis

Neat! Hope they find it!

. . . nonetheless they have found a number of varieties of archaeopteryx, and closely related species intermediates to birds.

more to follow . . .
 
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