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New Evidence Found To Show Humans Came From Fish

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Here are some specific verses. Thanks!

Ezekiel prophesied a number of years in captivity:

“…As for you [Ezekiel], lie down…for the number of days…three hundred and ninety days (for Israel’s sin)…When you have completed these…I have assigned it to you for forty days (for Judah’s sin)…a day for each year.”—Ezekiel 4:4-6

That's 430 years (biblical years of 360 days each). 70 years of captivity were served in Babylon, leaving 360 years.

Modern atheists noted this... surely the final Jewish diaspora into modern times lasted more than 360 years since the end of the Babylonian captivity! Surely the Bible was wrong:

606 BCE …Judah/Israel taken captive to Babylon

536 BCE …Cyrus allows return to Israel

...360 years later is pre-Roman times in Israel!

Some readers, noticed, however, that Leviticus 26:14-46 says Israel will pay seven times over for disobedience: "…If also after these things you do not obey Me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins."

They multiplied 7 times 360 360-day years from the Cyrus decree and in the Gentile calendar this comes out to: Whoa! May 14, 1948 CE! God left it as written to demonstrate it wasn't a self-fulfilled prophecy, and for skeptics to draw it out!

OK, so the punishment originally was to be 430 years starting in 606BCE. Instead, it should be multiplied by 7, so it should be 430x7=2910 years starting in 606BCE. Your calculation multiplied the *remaining* punishment after that 70 years and not the *total* punishment. Also, it says 7 times *more*, so this should be added *after* that 70 years, and depending on interpretation, after the original 430 years.

As an example, suppose someone is sentenced to 10 years, serves 3 and then their sentence is extended by 7 times more than their original punishment. How long would they spend in prison? At the least, the sentence would be 70 years in addition to the 3 and, more reasonably, to 70 years in addition to the original 10.

What about coincidence?
There are numerous Bible prophecies, these are the sole passages on the God-commanded length of the lengthy diaspora. The coincidence would be millions-to-one. There are similar precise number prophecies relating to other aspects, if you're interested. The date for Christ's crucifixion appears in the Septuagint, which scholars know dates to at least two-and-a-half centuries before Christ.

What about completely massaging the numbers until they come out to a previously established conclusion?
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
You've already cited this to me. We started this conversation with you telling me that the Bible states the exact date ... as in "Israel will form it's own sovereign nation on May 14, 1948." This turned out not to be the case and instead you've given me this stuff, several times. This does not clearly state any date at all. I'm sorry but for at least the third time, I do not find any of these exercises in math/mental gymnastics to be impressive or indicative of the fulfilling of any great prophecy at all. As I said before, I would be much more impressed if the Bible stated the actual date, but that I still would not consider that proof that the god you worship exists - it would simply indicate that some human(s) at some point in time are able to predict some things about the future. You've still got a lot of work to do if you want to get to the existence of god(s).

All you need do is align the date of Cyrus's decree with May 14, 1948, account for leap years and differences between the 360-day prophetic calendar and solar and you have the figure prophesied.

HOWEVER, I'm more interested as to why the humans who predicted the future in uncanny ways tell us we're sinners who need to trust the Christ for salvation (I've asked myself this question). What did I conclude, do you think?
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
OK, so the punishment originally was to be 430 years starting in 606BCE. Instead, it should be multiplied by 7, so it should be 430x7=2910 years starting in 606BCE. Your calculation multiplied the *remaining* punishment after that 70 years and not the *total* punishment. Also, it says 7 times *more*, so this should be added *after* that 70 years, and depending on interpretation, after the original 430 years.

As an example, suppose someone is sentenced to 10 years, serves 3 and then their sentence is extended by 7 times more than their original punishment. How long would they spend in prison? At the least, the sentence would be 70 years in addition to the 3 and, more reasonably, to 70 years in addition to the original 10.



What about completely massaging the numbers until they come out to a previously established conclusion?

The numbers weren't 'completely massaged". Let's explore:

I serve 50 years for murder. I'm in prison 10 years and 5 years come off further for good behavior, then I relent. 30 years are added. 50-15+30 = 65 years left.

Israel is in Babylon 70 years of a 430-year sentence (derived from disobedience during a period of accountability under the kings from Saul to Jechoniah, 430 years of 360 days each).

After 70 years, Cyrus releases the whole people willing to return to Israel--an extraordinary occurrence that Josephus reports was linked to his name being predicted in the scriptures as the liberator.

Israel has 360 years left. This is multiplied by 7 for disobedience.

Atheists notice near the close of the 20th century that the Jews should have "returned" 360 years after the Cyrus decree, but didn't, saying the scriptures are invalidated. NOTE THAT THE SKEPTICS SAID 360 years remained.

Some interested Bible readers noticed the "7 times" imprecation mentioned four times in the scriptures. Multiplying 360 times 7 prophetical years of 360 days each they come up with May 14, 1948. They say, Holy #$%^ (Holy Moses!) Israel was declared a nation again on that day by UN decree!

Let's leave it here and discuss something else if you remain unconvinced.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
All you need do is align the date of Cyrus's decree with May 14, 1948, account for leap years and differences between the 360-day prophetic calendar and solar and you have the figure prophesied.

HOWEVER, I'm more interested as to why the humans who predicted the future in uncanny ways tell us we're sinners who need to trust the Christ for salvation (I've asked myself this question). What did I conclude, do you think?
Yes I know, all you need to do is massage the numbers and it becomes whatever date you want it to be. I fail to see what's so uncanny about this "prediction."

There are plenty of people throughout history who have claimed to predict the future that weren't also preaching about salvation. You're cherry picking what you want to believe. On both counts.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Yes I know, all you need to do is massage the numbers and it becomes whatever date you want it to be. I fail to see what's so uncanny about this "prediction."

There are plenty of people throughout history who have claimed to predict the future that weren't also preaching about salvation. You're cherry picking what you want to believe. On both counts.

I don't follow--I am trying to do so, honestly, but I don't.

Before Israel was taken captive by Babylon, a Persian leader was called out 70 years prior by his Persian name, Cyrus. This triggers one of several vital prophecies, including this prophecy, which simple calculation of 360 years times 7--per the scriptures, one stating the 360, the other four mentions, the 7 times punishment, were discovered in hindsight--after skeptics complained about the 360-year period--to meet exactly the date the UN founded the second Israel.

Additionally, all the prophecies came true regarding the scattering to many nations, Israel being the cream of those nations, Israel being persecuted in those nations, Israel not assimilating but entering a homeland, Israel experiencing very specific troubles during the Holocaust, Israel being surrounded by enemies when she was restored, etc. - dozens and dozens of highly specific prophecies, actually.

What should I conclude regarding your being open- or closed-minded regarding the power of prophecy to convict us of the truth of the scriptures?
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
I don't follow--I am trying to do so, honestly, but I don't.

Before Israel was taken captive by Babylon, a Persian leader was called out 70 years prior by his Persian name, Cyrus. This triggers one of several vital prophecies, including this prophecy, which simple calculation of 360 years times 7--per the scriptures, one stating the 360, the other four mentions, the 7 times punishment, were discovered in hindsight--after skeptics complained about the 360-year period--to meet exactly the date the UN founded the second Israel.

Additionally, all the prophecies came true regarding the scattering to many nations, Israel being the cream of those nations, Israel being persecuted in those nations, Israel not assimilating but entering a homeland, Israel experiencing very specific troubles during the Holocaust, Israel being surrounded by enemies when she was restored, etc. - dozens and dozens of highly specific prophecies, actually.

What should I conclude regarding your being open- or closed-minded regarding the power of prophecy to convict us of the truth of the scriptures?
I read your list of prophecies that you mention here and they are about as specific as the Nostradamus prophecies, which is to say that they're pretty vague. It's easy to shoehorn almost whatever you want into them, as I think you're doing here. I mean, we started this discussion with you stating that the Bible states the exact date that Israel was formed. But that didn't turn out to be accurate. Another poster mentioned that people had once thought these prophecies were fulfilled during the Crusades. So what does that say about it?
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
I read your list of prophecies that you mention here and they are about as specific as the Nostradamus prophecies, which is to say that they're pretty vague. It's easy to shoehorn almost whatever you want into them, as I think you're doing here. I mean, we started this discussion with you stating that the Bible states the exact date that Israel was formed. But that didn't turn out to be accurate. Another poster mentioned that people had once thought these prophecies were fulfilled during the Crusades. So what does that say about it?

You're saying the prophecies are vague is a whitewash. You keep avoiding my points in addition to the date of Israel:

That the Bible says the Jews would be scattered to many countries (true) and persecuted in each (true) and the cream/intelligentsia of each (true) and never assimilated but would return to their land (true) which would be birthed in one day (true) in the midst of enemy nations (true) and etc. - there are hundreds of prophecies fulfilled in modern times...
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
You're saying the prophecies are vague is a whitewash. You keep avoiding my points in addition to the date of Israel:

That the Bible says the Jews would be scattered to many countries (true)
Religions tend to spread out across the world.

and persecuted in each (true)
Lots of religions also experience persecution - especially considering Jews had been persecuted long before this prediction.

and the cream/intelligentsia of each (true)
Will what...? Was the prophecy just that there WOULD BE intelligent Jews?

and never assimilated but would return to their land (true)
Vague.

which would be birthed in one day (true)
All modern countries are birthed in "one day" if your definition of "birthed" is specific enough.

in the midst of enemy nations (true)
When you take land from other people, that tends to happen.

and etc. - there are hundreds of prophecies fulfilled in modern times...
None of these "prophecies" are especially compelling - especially when you realize that there were literally thousands of people working over hundreds of years to try and bring them to fruition. It's about as prophetic as me expecting my friend to be injured in a car crash, and then cutting the breaks on their car.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
You're saying the prophecies are vague is a whitewash. You keep avoiding my points in addition to the date of Israel:

That the Bible says the Jews would be scattered to many countries (true) and persecuted in each (true) and the cream/intelligentsia of each (true) and never assimilated but would return to their land (true) which would be birthed in one day (true) in the midst of enemy nations (true) and etc. - there are hundreds of prophecies fulfilled in modern times...
On the contrary, you make my point for me every time you post this big long explanation with all the math and mental gymnastics, etc. I'll remember you again that we started this conversation when you told me that the Bible stated the exact date. Then when I asked for the verse(s) you've demonstrated that it doesn't. My point has been made.

Jews would be scattered to many countries? How is it some great prophecy to predict that people would move around different geographic areas, as people tend to do? It's not some big stretch of the imagination to predict that people who were being persecuted at the time, would continue to be persecuted in other places and other times. The rest is a self-fulfilling prophecy, as already discussed by myself and another poster.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Religions tend to spread out across the world.


Lots of religions also experience persecution - especially considering Jews had been persecuted long before this prediction.


Will what...? Was the prophecy just that there WOULD BE intelligent Jews?


Vague.


All modern countries are birthed in "one day" if your definition of "birthed" is specific enough.


When you take land from other people, that tends to happen.


None of these "prophecies" are especially compelling - especially when you realize that there were literally thousands of people working over hundreds of years to try and bring them to fruition. It's about as prophetic as me expecting my friend to be injured in a car crash, and then cutting the breaks on their car.

The last sentence is problematic. Why were thousands of people persecuting Jews to bring that prophecy to fruition? I hope you're not saying the Jews suffered persecution intentionally to be self-fulfilling in prophecy?!!
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
On the contrary, you make my point for me every time you post this big long explanation with all the math and mental gymnastics, etc. I'll remember you again that we started this conversation when you told me that the Bible stated the exact date. Then when I asked for the verse(s) you've demonstrated that it doesn't. My point has been made.

Jews would be scattered to many countries? How is it some great prophecy to predict that people would move around different geographic areas, as people tend to do? It's not some big stretch of the imagination to predict that people who were being persecuted at the time, would continue to be persecuted in other places and other times. The rest is a self-fulfilling prophecy, as already discussed by myself and another poster.

What other people were in diaspora 2,500 years without assimilating?

What other people comprise 1/4 of 1% of population but win 12% of Nobel prizes, outperforming other people groups at a ratio of 48:1?

What other people have been through so many diasporas, holocausts, persecutions?

Etc.



I've rephrased the below for your convenience:

The Babylonian captivity ended in the spring of 536 B.C.E., 1st
Nisan. This date is the starting point for our calculations. The
period of worldwide captivity would last 2,520 biblical years x
360 days = 907,200 days. Converting this figure into our calendar
year we divide the 907,200 days by 365.25 to reach a total of
2,483.8 calendar years. (Remember that there is only one year
between 1 B.C.E. and 1 C.E.; there was no Year Zero). The end of
Israel's worldwide captivity would occur after a total of 2,483.8
years had elapsed from the end of the Babylonian Captivity in the
spring of 536 B.C.E.

End of Babylonian Captivity: Spring 536 B.C.E. + the duration of
Worldwide Captivity: 2,483.8 Calendar Years = When the Worldwide
Captivity would end: Spring 1948.


The Rebirth of Israel: May 14th 1948

On May 14, 1948, the Jewish people proclaimed the independence of
Israel and the end of their worldwide captivity at the precise
time prophesied by the prophet Ezekiel. On this very day a united
Israel took its place as a sovereign, independent state among the
nations.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
What other people were in diaspora 2,500 years without assimilating?

What other people comprise 1/4 of 1% of population but win 12% of Nobel prizes, outperforming other people groups at a ratio of 48:1?

What other people have been through so many diasporas, holocausts, persecutions?

Etc.


Many groups of people have been through terrible things. Human beings have a terrible history of treating each other badly.

What I'm wondering is, how any of the things you've mentioned above indicate somehow that Judaism/Christianity is correct and accurate and/or that the Jews are the chosen people of some god(s).

I've rephrased the below for your convenience:

The Babylonian captivity ended in the spring of 536 B.C.E., 1st
Nisan. This date is the starting point for our calculations. The
period of worldwide captivity would last 2,520 biblical years x
360 days = 907,200 days. Converting this figure into our calendar
year we divide the 907,200 days by 365.25 to reach a total of
2,483.8 calendar years. (Remember that there is only one year
between 1 B.C.E. and 1 C.E.; there was no Year Zero). The end of
Israel's worldwide captivity would occur after a total of 2,483.8
years had elapsed from the end of the Babylonian Captivity in the
spring of 536 B.C.E.

End of Babylonian Captivity: Spring 536 B.C.E. + the duration of
Worldwide Captivity: 2,483.8 Calendar Years = When the Worldwide
Captivity would end: Spring 1948.


The Rebirth of Israel: May 14th 1948

On May 14, 1948, the Jewish people proclaimed the independence of
Israel and the end of their worldwide captivity at the precise
time prophesied by the prophet Ezekiel. On this very day a united
Israel took its place as a sovereign, independent state among the
nations.
I've read your assertions about this several times. My response remains the same.
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
The last sentence is problematic. Why were thousands of people persecuting Jews to bring that prophecy to fruition? I hope you're not saying the Jews suffered persecution intentionally to be self-fulfilling in prophecy?!!
Not even remotely.

But, sure, ignore the entire rest of my argument and just wildly misinterpret one sentence. That's how to construct a reasonable response.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Many groups of people have been through terrible things. Human beings have a terrible history of treating each other badly.

What I'm wondering is, how any of the things you've mentioned above indicate somehow that Judaism/Christianity is correct and accurate and/or that the Jews are the chosen people of some god(s).


I've read your assertions about this several times. My response remains the same.

Jewish people winning 48 times more Nobel prizes equals what? A "love of learning"?

Do not pass go, do not collect $200.

Please try again: Tisha B’Av (9th of Av)

:)
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Not even remotely.

But, sure, ignore the entire rest of my argument and just wildly misinterpret one sentence. That's how to construct a reasonable response.

Thank you (not) for AGAIN trimming the whole thread to attack me out of context.

Do you want to discuss our souls and the need for redemption or play semantics?
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
Thank you (not) for AGAIN trimming the whole thread to attack me out of context.
What are you talking about? What you wrote was a direct response to what I wrote that completely missed the point, and I didn't even remotely attack you or take your post out of context.

Do you want to discuss our souls and the need for redemption or play semantics?
I didn't play semantics. Please try to stop projecting.

I am beginning to seriously doubt your ability to debate reasonably. Right now you're being ridiculous. I wrote an ENTIRE POST addressing each of your arguments POINT BY POINT and you literally only responded to the last sentence (by wildly misinterpreting it, no less). That's not semantics, and what you're engaged is not an argument. It's just obfuscation. If you're just going to keep ignoring the vast majority of my arguments, and then respond with childish indignity when I point this out, then I don't see how either of us can get anything constructive out of this debate.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
What are you talking about? What you wrote was a direct response to what I wrote that completely missed the point, and I didn't even remotely attack you or take your post out of context.


I didn't play semantics. Please try to stop projecting.

I am beginning to seriously doubt your ability to debate reasonably. Right now you're being ridiculous. I wrote an ENTIRE POST addressing each of your arguments POINT BY POINT and you literally only responded to the last sentence (by wildly misinterpreting it, no less). That's not semantics, and what you're engaged is not an argument. It's just obfuscation. If you're just going to keep ignoring the vast majority of my arguments, and then respond with childish indignity when I point this out, then I don't see how either of us can get anything constructive out of this debate.

I would echo what you wrote to say you are projecting.

My basis for this is that I answer questions at this forum in love to promote others' well-being. I'm unsure why a skeptic or atheist/agnostic would spend so much time posting at a religious forum.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
The Jewish story is so unique, so extraordinary and so thoroughly prophesied specifically and accurately in the Bible that I take the Bible as truth from a writer who saw through time.
That may be enough for you, but it's not convincing to me. The one prophecy you provided for me wasn't nearly as spectacular as you initially claimed it was.

The ancient Greek myths are unique too, but that doesn't mean they're true.
 
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