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New DNA evidence supporting 'Out of India'

Discussion in 'Hinduism - Philosophy and Theology DIR' started by Vinayaka, Sep 17, 2019.

  1. Vinayaka

    Vinayaka devotee
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    I know this won't end any debate, because the Aryan Invasion debate never ends, too much ego involved, but it is more information.

     
  2. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

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    It does not even start the debate. Just one skeleton, DNA not done, but claims. Though very welcome in today's India..
     
  3. Jainarayan

    Jainarayan ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
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    I've promised myself that I wouldn't even look at these stories anymore, but it's just bad science. Actually t's not even science at all. I've been learning a fair amount about DNA and genetics since I had my test done over 4 years ago, and it piqued my interest and curiosity. I'm not an expert, but with a few basics, it's really not all that difficult to work with.

    These "theories"... Out of India, Aryan Migration/Invasion, and what-not do not reflect even a drop in the DNA pool of human migration. The arguments over this are becoming more mind boggling with each one. Researchers, proponents, opponents, fans, detractors on all sides are trying to look at this in a binary, either-or, black/white way, and it just isn't that simple. Every DNA haplogroup (the X and Y chromosomes that show direct matrilineal or patrilineal descent, respectively) can be traced ultimately out of Africa, without question, and the routes of migration mapped. All along the way of that 200,000 year road trip, mutations have occurred in the DNA.

    They look at excruciatingly painfully small samples of DNA from bodies, compared to the actual number of people who lived in a particular geographic location and/or migrated in or out. It is indeed possible that one person, 10 persons, 1,000 persons seem to be indigenous to an area. But what are they looking at? Autosomal DNA, the chromosomes that give us our characteristics, mix and get watered down, or when a population settled in an area, it remained stable through endogamy. Autosomal DNA only shows that populations have similar traits. It doesn't show where those traits originated, unless combined with the X (men and women) or Y (men only) DNA.

    My own DNA for example... Italian-American:

    upload_2019-9-17_13-46-29.png

    The migrations of my paternal line, said to originate in the Near East:
    upload_2019-9-17_13-51-37.png
    I have ancestors who migrated into the Indian subcontinent 53,000 years ago and are still there, though in miniscule numbers (T is a rare haplogroup to begin with).

    Here is the migration of my maternal line:
    upload_2019-9-17_13-54-44.png

    Migrated through South Asia, Southeast Asia and into Australia 53,000 years ago. It is still found there.

    So I guess my point is that these theories and tests are saturated with confirmation bias. Everyone came from somewhere. And the older the DNA is, the more it will look like it originated in a certain geographic area. It's a shame because all parties are wasting so much time on this instead of celebrating what a people accomplished, celebrating the people themselves. I really wish they'd just drop this.
     
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  4. Vinayaka

    Vinayaka devotee
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    DNA in this case should just be D o N ot A rgue. Now is now. Then was then. Who cares? Sorry to have disturbed your day.
     
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  5. Jainarayan

    Jainarayan ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
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    Nooo! No apologies! I’m just a little more vocal about it than you. I agree with you wholeheartedly. Wherever they came from is immaterial, what they accomplished is what matters. And you know me... I lead with my chin. I’m totally convinced I’m Kshatriya.
     
  6. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

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    Nice, but this has not been proved to 100% certainty. :)
    Multiregional origin of modern humans - Wikipedia
    Argue to your heart's content, but do not come to blows. That, is the Hindu way. :D :D

    "सह नाववतु। सह नौ भुनक्तु। सह वीर्यं करवावहै। तेजस्वि नावधीतमस्तु। मा विद्विषावहै।"
    Saha nāvavatu l saha nau bhunaktu l saha vīrya karavāvahai l tejaswi nāvadhītamastu l ma vidvishāvahai l
    May the lord protect us both; May the Lord nourish us both; Let us both put in our efforts vigorously; Let our efforts be brilliant; Let there be no discord between us.
    (Vidvesha - discord)
    Yeah, you might be of 'Kshatriya' 'varna'. Meaning that be your natural inclination. I am sort of Vishwamitra or Parashurama, carrying two traits - Brahmin as well as Kshatriya. That is why I argue so much in the forum. ;)
     
    #6 Aupmanyav, Sep 17, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2019
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  7. ajay0

    ajay0 Well-Known Member

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    The term 'Aryan ' itself which means noble or one of ideal character or higher states of consciousness, as taught in Dharmic religious philosophy, was itself an unfortunate victim of all this pseudo-scholarship of the west.

    It was twisted out of context from what the Rishis, Krishna and Buddha taught to mean as stated above, to mean of a distinct race.

    Hitler was the flag-bearer for this pseudo-scholarly version, and this resulted in the second world war unfortunately for the west, but fortunately for the east as the asian and african nations gained independence due to the western nations highly weakened by the world wars.

    In the Dharmic religious philosophy, Arya still means one of noble character, as explained earlier. The Prajapita Brahmakumaris too have stated that the term Arya means one of noble character.

    In terms of archaeology too, enough evidences have been recovered in the last decades, to discredit all such invasion and immigration theories.

    The swastika itself has been excavated in the ancient Harrapan sites which are supposed to be so-called Dravidian.

    Faience button seal


    The genetic evidence as mentioned earlier in the op is also one among many such discredittors.

    But my puzzlement is that why do some westerners are still inclined to see the term Aryan in any other context other than the Dharmic philosophical meaning of 'one of noble conduct or excellent character'.

    This is because character itself is highly emphasized in many western sayings and quotes. Here is a usually quoted saying..

    When wealth is lost, nothing is lost; when health is lost, something is lost; when character is lost, all is lost.

    My Indian teacher used to emphasize this western saying many times in classroom. It's unfortunate that western scholars however totally lost sight of these sayings of theirs though western leaders, hypocritical Nixon included, keep on emphasizing character in their speeches and writings as that which distinguishes the winners from the losers.
     
  8. Jainarayan

    Jainarayan ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
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    Sort of the warrior-poet? I can relate. When I was young I was a wimp. As I’ve gotten older I’ve gotten belligerent.
     
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