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New discoveries of 'missing links.'

firedragon

Veteran Member
Yes the hypothesis is abiogenesis, and yes you misused the terminology of hypothesis and evidence in your previous confusing post.



Very very confusing response. You have not made yourself clear on your objections to abiogenesis. Actually the boundary between evolution and abiogenesis is not clear, and many of the concepts of organic evolution of life apply to the chemical evolution of the pre-life forms in abiogenesis. Viruses and their primitive forms are a classic examples which would be transitional from pre-life chemical beginnings to living organisms

I notice that you acknowledge as bolded that the research does 'provide evidence' for abiogenesis, as do the hundreds articles you can read simply going a google search.

No. But thanks. Have a great day.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
A new early transitional species between raptors and birds.

https://phys.org/news/2020-06-argentine-paleontologists-small-carnivorous-dinosaur.html


Argentine paleontologists discover small carnivorous dinosaur



thefossilize.jpg

The fossilized jaw of an Overoraptor chimentoi, a new species of dinosaur discovered in Argentine Patagonia
Fossilized remains of a new species of dinosaur that lived 90 million years ago have been discovered in Patagonia, Argentine paleontologists announced on Thursday.

The winged dinosaur had legs similar to the velociraptor and experts believe it may hold the key to revealing information about the evolution of birds.

The fossil remains, which measure less than a meter and a half in length, were discovered at a dig in the province of Rio Negro in Argentine Patagonia, around 1,100 kilometers (685 miles) from Buenos Aires, the scientific dissemination agency from the La Matanza university said.

It is a new species of carnivorous Paraves theropod that has been named Overoraptor chimentoi, explained Matias Motta, a researcher from the Argentine natural sciences museum.

It is related to another species found more than 10,000 kilometers away in Madagascar.

The first remains were discovered in 2013, with more fossils found in a second dig in 2018.

"This animal had a very sharp claw on its index toe, which certainly was used to attack prey, and it had a long and graceful leg, which indicates it was a running animal," said Motta, the main author of the study published in The Science of Nature magazine.

"It was certainly fast, agile and, like all its relatives, it would have been carnivorous."

Researchers were surprised to find that while its legs were similar to the "raptor" family of dinosaurs, its upper limbs were very long and robust, similar to modern birds.

The second dig uncovered many bones, including an almost complete foot, tail vertebrae and parts of a wing, said paleontologist Federico Brisson Egli.

Previous discoveries in Patagonia of dinosaurs with bird-like features belonged to the Unenlagia genus of dromaeosaurid theropods, which were agile and walked on their hind legs.

"Contrary to what we originally assumed, the Overoraptor is not part of the Unenlagia family, but from another group including a Madagascan species called Rahonavis," said paleontologist Fernando Novas.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
One point that this reference did not make clear, which is an important factor that makes this discovery very important is that the Ravenavis family this species is an older primitive missing link that is more closely related to Avialae the family that birds more directly descended from. Both Unenlagia and the Ravenavis families of Therapod dinosaurs and had feathered bird like dinosaurs. There are not many fossil of species from Ravenavis family. In fact I believe the only other species in this family is found in Madagascar.
 
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shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Through this thread I have described a theme of evolution that evolution is continuous, and the concept of species is a transitory concept in time, and in reality 'no missing links.'. Evolution is environment, and environmental change driven over time. I object to the concept of punctuated equilibrium as an adequate description of how evolution takes place it is too mechanical and does not explain the evidence of cause of change over time. First, all the present evidence associates the diversity life over time associated with the environment.

The following is an interesting article that approaches it from a different perspective.

[cite=[URL='https://scitechdaily.com/the-most-popular-textbook-example-of-punctuated-evolution-has-been-debunked-by-researchers/']The Most Popular Textbook Example of Punctuated Evolution Has Been Debunked by Researchers[/URL]]

The Most Popular Textbook Example of Punctuated Evolution Has Been Debunked by Researchers
TOPICS:EvolutionPaleontologyUniversity Of Oslo

By BJARNE RØSJØ, UNIVERSITY OF OSLO JUNE 27, 2020


The picture shows the seven species of bryozoans that were used in the debunking.The white line is only 500 micrometers in lenght. Copyright: JoAnn Sanner, The University of Chicago
The most popular textbook example of

Researchers at the University of Oslo have debunked a textbook example about how evolution proceeds during speciation. Renowned paleontologist Stephen Jay Gould fronted the old theory.

Evolutionary biologists have for a long time disagreed on the rate of evolution when new species emerge. Are new species the result of gradual changes – as Charles Darwin suggested – or is evolution speeding up for short periods of time when new species evolve?

World renowned paleontologist Stephen Jay Gould (1941-2002) formulated the theory of punctuated equilibrium together with Niles Eldredge (1943-) in 1972. The theory states that species remain more or less unaltered during their existence, with major evolutionary change happening during rapid events of speciation. As evidence for this view, Gould pointed to the fossil record.


Fossils can tell scientists about what life on Earth looked like in the past. The picture shows two million year old fossils of marine organisms found on an expedition to New Zealand. Credit: Kjetil Lysne Voje/UiO

According to Gould, the fossil record typically show that species do not change significantly after they emerge, and that major changes occurred when new species appeared.

Stephen Jay Gould was one of the twentieth century’s most famous evolutionary biologists and a bestselling popular science writer. Some even claimed that Gould was the foremost biologist of his time – perhaps the greatest since Charles Darwin himself – so his words have carried a lot of weight to this day.

In a new paper from researchers at the University of Oslo, the authors claim to have found several methodological problems in the most famous and well-trusted example supporting the theory of punctuated equilibrium.

“We find no evidence for punctuated evolution in our reanalysis of the most recognized dataset that Gould used to support his theory,” says Kjetil Lysne Voje at UiO’s Center for Ecological and Evolutionary Synthesis (CEES) at the Department of Biosciences.

Textbook example is rejected
Fossils of the bryozoan genus Metrarabdotos – a group of aquatic invertebrates thoroughly investigated by the excellent paleobiologist Alan Cheetham – have been the prime example of punctuated evolution.

Gould called Metrarabdotos “the most brilliantly persuasive, and most meticulously documented, example ever presented for predominant (in this case, exclusive) punctuated equilibrium in a full lineage” (Gould 2002, page 827).


Researcher Kjetil Lysne Voje led the new study on evolution of species within the bryozoan genus Metrarabdotos. Credit: Unni Vik/UiO

“We detected some critical methodological issues in the original work on Metrarabdotos. When we take the methodological issues into account, we do not find any evidence of punctuated evolution in our reanalysis of the Metrarabdotos data,” says Kjetil Lysne Voje.

Bryozoans are so small that scientists have to use an electron microscope to study them in detail, but they form colonies that can be quite large (up to 1 meter). Most bryozoans live in the sea, but there are also many species in fresh water. The bryozoan genus Metrarabdotos has been used as a textbook example in evolutionary biology and paleontology, showing how evolution speeds up when new species form compared to a much slower evolution of already established species.

“But our new results show nothing else than a gradual evolution of the bryozoan species both before, during and after the formation of new species,” emphasizes Voje.

Why is this important?
The idea of fast-track evolution during speciation has been controversial. Critics of the theory of punctuated equilibrium found it difficult to believe that the evolutionary processes leading to new species should be markedly different from the processes that cause already existing species to change.

“Species are continuously evolving and our results support the hypothesis that evolution does not “behave” differently when new species emerge,” says Voje.

The paper with the new results was published in the May issue of The American Naturalist. The authors of the study are Kjetil Lysne Voje, Emanuela Di Martino and Arthur Porto.

Reference: “Revisiting a Landmark Study System: No Evidence for a Punctuated Mode of Evolution in Metrarabdotos” by Kjetil Lysne Voje, Emanuela Di Martino and Arthur Porto, 17 March 2020, The American Naturalist.
DOI: 10.1086/707664.
 
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GardenLady

Active Member
Yes, and homo sapien, interbred with homo neanderthalensis, as that population ( H. Neander) declined due to our induced competitive exclusion.

And the DNA of the Neanderthanls and Denisovans is still with us In fact, I am 2.4% Neanderthal and 2.5% Denisovan, according to my DNA results from the National Geographic "Genographic" study.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
New discoveries have provided links between Primordial Life and Complex Life.

Evolutionary Insight: New Connection Discovered Between Primordial Organisms and Complex Life

Evolutionary Insight: New Connection Discovered Between Primordial Organisms and Complex Life


Sulfolobus acidocaldarius thrives in geothermal mud pools like this one in New Zealand. Credit: Lancaster University

A novel connection between primordial organisms and complex life has been discovered, as new evidence sheds light on the evolutionary origins of the cell division process that is fundamental to complex life on Earth.

The discovery was made by a cross-disciplinary team of scientists led by Professor Buzz Baum of University College London and Dr. Nick Robinson of Lancaster University.

Their research, published in Science, sheds light on the cell division of the microbe Sulfolobus acidocaldarius, which thrives in acidic hot springs at temperatures of around 75?C. This microbe is classed among the unicellular organisms called archaea that evolved 3.5 billion years ago together with bacteria.

Eukaryotes evolved about 1 billion years later — likely arising from an endosymbiotic event in which an archaeal and bacterial cell merged. The resulting complex cells became a new division of life that now includes the protozoa, fungi, plants, and animals.

Now a common regulatory mechanism has been discovered in the cell division of both archaea and eukaryotes after the researchers demonstrated for the first time that the proteasome — sometimes referred to as the waste disposal system of the cell — regulates the cell division in Sulfolobus acidocaldarius by selectively breaking down a specific set of proteins.

The authors report: “This is important because the proteasome has not previously been shown to control the cell division process of archaea.”

The proteasome is evolutionarily conserved in both archaea and eukaryotes and it is already well established that selective proteasome-mediated protein degradation plays a key role in the cell cycle regulation of eukaryotes.

These findings therefore shed new light on the evolutionary history of the eukaryotes.

The authors summarize: “It has become increasingly apparent that the complex eukaryotic cells arose following an endosymbiotic event between an ancestral archaeal cell and an alpha-proteobacterium, which subsequently became the mitochondria within the resulting eukaryotic cell. Our study suggests that the vital role of the proteasome in the cell cycle of all eukaryotic life today has its evolutionary origins in archaea.”

Reference: “The proteasome controls ESCRT-III–mediated cell division in an archaeon” by Gabriel Tarrason Risa, Fredrik Hurtig, Sian Bray, Anne E. Hafner, Lena Harker-Kirschneck, Peter Faull, Colin Davis, Dimitra Papatziamou, Delyan R. Mutavchiev, Catherine Fan, Leticia Meneguello, Andre Arashiro Pulschen, Gautam Dey, Siân Culley, Mairi Kilkenny, Diorge P. Souza, Luca Pellegrini, Robertus A. M. de Bruin, Ricardo Henriques, Ambrosius P. Snijders, Andela Šaric, Ann-Christin Lindås, Nicholas P. Robinson and Buzz Baum, 7 August 2020, Science.
DOI: 10.1126/science.aaz2532
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
And the DNA of the Neanderthanls and Denisovans is still with us In fact, I am 2.4% Neanderthal and 2.5% Denisovan, according to my DNA results from the National Geographic "Genographic" study.

Changes in climate, and food source landscpe are reflected in the evolution of hominins. This includes the Neanerthals and their eventual extinction. Also . . .

Changing Landscapes, Changing Diets: Fossilized Teeth Reveal Dietary Shifts in Ancient Herbivores and Hominins
Changing Landscapes, Changing Diets: Fossilized Teeth Reveal Dietary Shifts in Ancient Herbivores and Hominins
TOPICS:AnthropologyBehavioral ScienceEvolutionPaleontology

AUGUST 27, 2020


Casts of two key specimens: Paranthropus aethiopicus (left) and P. boisei (right). Credit: Zeresenay Alemseged

A new study published this week in the journal Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences documents dietary shifts in herbivores that lived between 1-3 million years ago in Ethiopia’s Lower Omo Valley. The research team, led by Enquye Negash, a postdoctoral researcher in the George Washington University Center for the Advanced Study of Human Paleobiology, examined stable isotopes in the fossilized teeth of herbivores such as antelopes and pigs and found a shift away from C3-derived foods, characteristic of woody vegetation, to C4-derived foods, representative of grasses and sedges. The shift happened at two distinct time periods, approximately 2.7 million years ago and 2 million years ago, when the environment of the Lower Omo Valley was transitioning to open savanna.

The study, “Dietary trends in herbivores from the Shungura Formation, southwestern Ethiopia,” served as a comparative framework to an associated hominin diet study, also published this week, of which Negash was a co-author. The associated study, “Isotopic evidence for the timing of the dietary shift towards C4 foods in eastern African Paranthropus,” examined carbon isotope data from the fossilized tooth enamel of Paranthropus boisei, a nonancestral hominin relative. Led by Jonathan Wynn, now a program director in the National Science Foundation’s division of Earth sciences, the research team behind that paper found a profound shift toward the consumption of C4-derived foods approximately 2.37 million years ago, which preceded a morphological shift of P. boisei’s skull and jaw. Given the direct evidence provided by the abundant, well-dated fossilized teeth and their chemical composition, the new findings suggest behavioral dietary changes can precede apparent morphological adaptations to new foods.

From the Researchers:

“Major dietary shifts that are observed in our study reflect the response of the herbivores to major ecological and environmental changes during this time. This allowed us to better understand the environmental context of similar dietary changes in hominins.”

– Enquye Negash


“Although we’re interested in how the diets of our immediate and distant ancestors evolved to produce our modern human diet, it is very important to consider these hominins as a small part of an ecosystem that included other plant and animal species that responded to changing environments in an interconnected way.”
– Jonathan Wynn

References:

“Dietary trends in herbivores from the Shungura Formation, southwestern Ethiopia” by Enquye W. Negash, Zeresenay Alemseged, René Bobe, Frederick Grine, Matt Sponheimer and Jonathan G. Wynn, 24 August 2020, Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.
DOI: 10.1073/pnas.2006982117

“Isotopic evidence for the timing of the dietary shift toward C4 foods in eastern African Paranthropus” by Jonathan G. Wynn, Zeresenay Alemseged, René Bobe, Frederick E. Grine, Enquye W. Negash and Matt Sponheimer, 24 August 2020, Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.
DOI: 10.1073/pnas.2006221117

This work was supported by National Science Foundation (NSF) award 1252157. Wynn was also supported by an NSF Independent Research and Development (IR/D) program.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
As we all live as a consciousness, in a modern day skull and skeletal body, expressing our conscious ideals as the highest life form applying the methodology of the studies.

Concluding what form of evidence as compared to self. That between all the ideas of previous skeletal bodies is missing information as compared to what you own today....as a group agreed study process, only applied by a life who lives for about 100 years claiming the reasoning for what real purpose?

In the life and living condition, I am just one self, born from 2 parents. 100 years ago my own conscious expression as a self did not exist and these studies are done in a human chosen applied group agreement. Just as humans.

I always wondered at what you think you are researching for? We own what you claim is what is missing from what you are looking at in the past.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
“Foot-powered whales”?

Couldn’t seem to find any articles discussing them. (They were only mentioned — never discussed — in those articles about Aegicetus gehennae.)
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
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gnostic

The Lost One
What's the evidence?

The most abundant organic matters in the human body are cells, all different types of cells.

But in term of biological molecules and about 20% of the mass these are proteins, followed by 12% being lipids (fat).

The nucleic acids, RNA only make up about 1% of our mass while DNA 0.1%.

About 60% to 65% of our mass is water, but water is inorganic molecules.

What is essential to every cells, not just cells in humans, but in all living organisms, there are 3 biological macromolecules (large molecules) are found in common:
  1. proteins,
  2. nucleic acids,
  3. carbohydrates
Since proteins make up large part of the body mass of most living organisms, so they have broken down proteins and found that proteins are made of another biological compounds - amino acids.

There are over 500 different types of amino acids, but only 23 different types can be found in proteins - hence these are labelled as “proteinogenic amino acid”.

Hence, scientists have tried to mimic Earth’s early environments of possible known inorganic chemicals in the air (atmosphere) and water, to produce amino acids from various inorganic compounds.

And in Earth’s early atmosphere, there wouldn’t be any free oxygen at that time, so any experiments must be preformed in oxygen-free environment.

In the Miller-Urey experiment in 1952, they used water, methane, ammonia and hydrogen. They have also use heat and electricity (electrodes, to mimic the lightning) to start the catalyst of chemical reactions.

In the aftermath of the experiment, 11 amino acids were detected, then stored away in 20 sealed vials until after Miller’s death in 2007. The vials reveal another 9 different types of amino acids have formed over time.

Other chemicals were added in different experiments by other scientists, also to mimic Earth’s early atmosphere, such as nitrogen, frequent volcanic activities around that time would have produced inorganic gases such as carbon dioxide, hydrogen sulfide and sulfur dioxide. They yield some successes in different experiments.

In 1961, Joan Oro did experiment in which he produce adenine which form the basis of nucleobase, which is a component of nucleic acids. Oro did so with only 3 chemicals.

So to answer your questions, yes there are inorganic chemicals can result in chemical reactions that form specific biological/organic compounds.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
The most abundant organic matters in the human body are cells, all different types of cells.

But in term of biological molecules and about 20% of the mass these are proteins, followed by 12% being lipids (fat).

The nucleic acids, RNA only make up about 1% of our mass while DNA 0.1%.

About 60% to 65% of our mass is water, but water is inorganic molecules.

What is essential to every cells, not just cells in humans, but in all living organisms, there are 3 biological macromolecules (large molecules) are found in common:
  1. proteins,
  2. nucleic acids,
  3. carbohydrates
Since proteins make up large part of the body mass of most living organisms, so they have broken down proteins and found that proteins are made of another biological compounds - amino acids.

There are over 500 different types of amino acids, but only 23 different types can be found in proteins - hence these are labelled as “proteinogenic amino acid”.

Hence, scientists have tried to mimic Earth’s early environments of possible known inorganic chemicals in the air (atmosphere) and water, to produce amino acids from various inorganic compounds.

And in Earth’s early atmosphere, there wouldn’t be any free oxygen at that time, so any experiments must be preformed in oxygen-free environment.

In the Miller-Urey experiment in 1952, they used water, methane, ammonia and hydrogen. They have also use heat and electricity (electrodes, to mimic the lightning) to start the catalyst of chemical reactions.

In the aftermath of the experiment, 11 amino acids were detected, then stored away in 20 sealed vials until after Miller’s death in 2007. The vials reveal another 9 different types of amino acids have formed over time.

Other chemicals were added in different experiments by other scientists, also to mimic Earth’s early atmosphere, such as nitrogen, frequent volcanic activities around that time would have produced inorganic gases such as carbon dioxide, hydrogen sulfide and sulfur dioxide. They yield some successes in different experiments.

In 1961, Joan Oro did experiment in which he produce adenine which form the basis of nucleobase, which is a component of nucleic acids. Oro did so with only 3 chemicals.

So to answer your questions, yes there are inorganic chemicals can result in chemical reactions that form specific biological/organic compounds.

I truly appreciate your effort and knowledge. What I asked for is evidence for abiogenesis, not the hypothesis.
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
I truly appreciate your effort and knowledge. What I asked for is evidence for abiogenesis, not the hypothesis.
@gnostic listed experiments that showed the formation of organic chemicals in a simulated early earth atmosphere. If that isn't evidence for you, what is?
(And remember that we'll hold your evidence for your hypothesis to the same standard.)
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
@gnostic listed experiments that showed the formation of organic chemicals in a simulated early earth atmosphere. If that isn't evidence for you, what is?
(And remember that we'll hold your evidence for your hypothesis to the same standard.)

Whats my hypothesis?

Anyway, I understand that abiogenesis maybe true. So there is no need to religiously oppose anyone who questions your beliefs. When someone asks for evidence that doesnt mean they are opposing you. Maybe they are just asking for the evidence one person claims. Just look at how people react when like minded individuals are challenged for something. Anyway, no worries mate. All good.

The evidences fro abiogenesis like Halites and salinity etc etc are still providing good evidence for the Hypothesis.

Peace.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
I truly appreciate your effort and knowledge. What I asked for is evidence for abiogenesis, not the hypothesis.
Abiogenesis is a hypothesis. It isn’t a scientific theory, and it is science yet...

But it is a working hypothesis, meaning some evidence have been discovered and som useful experiments have already been done in the last 68 years, and they are considered successful progresses.

What I have done is talk about at least 2 experiments, where they have chemically change inorganic chemical into biological/organic compounds (amino acids with Miller-Urey and adenine with Oro experiment). There have been more experiments done, but these are the notable earlier ones.

Then there are Murchison Meteor (1969), where in the interior of the largest piece, they discovered a number of organic matters, including amino acids.

This is very important discovery, because the meteor showed that organic matters can form in space over time.

Even more stunning about the all the different fragments of this meteor, they are currently the oldest object on Earth, right now. They dated silicon carbide in the meteor as about 7 billion years old.

That older than the Earth. It is older than the Sun.

There are currently several different models of Abiogenesis.

At least one model (that I know of) is working on scenario that the sources of water and organic matters were brought on Earth by large extraterrestrial objects like comets, meteors, asteroids and planetesimals, during the accretion stage of the Solar System and during the heavy bombardment of these objects during the Earth’s Hadean Eon (of Precambrian).

The Murchison meteorite led credibility to those proposing the extraterrestrial sources, with discovery of various organic matters.

Other models say that life started here on Earth, through organic matters developing on puddle (another model), eg Miller-Urey experiment. While others favored the hydrothermal vent model where organic matters form in Earth’s primitive oceans.

Both are valid proposals for how life could have started.

Biologists and biochemists are yet undecided which of these models is the real source for how life might have started on Earth.

My points with these 2 posts is to show the progresses and discoveries made so far with Abiogenesis.
 
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