1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured New Atheists?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Policy, Jan 12, 2022.

Tags:
  1. Windwalker

    Windwalker Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2013
    Messages:
    12,524
    Ratings:
    +8,349
    Religion:
    Love, Light, and Life
    Rarely do I use this meme, but.... ^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^^

    Well put. Exactly what I'm driving at. "But it's not faith, it's not a religion, it's not a worldview..." It all is.

    I've shared this story countless times, but for those who haven't heard it, it underscores this. A friend from Bible college days and I were out at lunch years after our graduating together. We were both now atheists. He said to me, "I'm so glad I have the truth now!". I said to him, "I remember both of us saying those exact same words when were were in school believing what we did back then." He paused a bit dumbfounded and then replied, "But the difference is, now I really DO have the truth".

    When we are looking out through our eyes, we generally don't recognize that they are actually eyes we are looking through. We mistake the eyes seeing the world, as what the world actually is, as if there were no eyes at all. Willard Sellers calls this the Myth of the Given, I believe. Wilfrid Sellars (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)
     
    #381 Windwalker, Jan 17, 2022
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2022
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  2. Sheldon

    Sheldon Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2021
    Messages:
    7,142
    Ratings:
    +4,273
    Religion:
    None
    You were aiming for irony right? If so kudos, as the way the mere mention of science in any context, has you repeating your scientism mantra, definitely made that ridiculous claim an irony overload.
    [​IMG]
     
  3. Sheldon

    Sheldon Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2021
    Messages:
    7,142
    Ratings:
    +4,273
    Religion:
    None
    Sorry, lost me again, we perceive our perception can't perceive things properly? I'm seeing a paradox again.



    Well I recognise there are claims that reality encompasses things like claims for religious experience, but I can't offer any opinion, as I have had no such experience, and those that claim to have seem to arrive had very different conclusions, and cannot demonstrate much beyond the claim itself to support it. However when I say reality, take it as a given I'm talking about the natural physical world and universe.

    One of science's greatest strengths is the ability to correct errors in line with new evidence, so we have every reason to hope it will remain useful, and relevant.

    Well of course, since science is not an infallible method, just a toolkit we keep adding to, there is no reason to believe it can't, or even won't, be improved as we learn more as well.
     
  4. Augustus

    Augustus the Unreasonable

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2014
    Messages:
    13,691
    Ratings:
    +12,833
    Religion:
    none
    Why would that be a paradox? Might want to retire that word now you've said it properly ;)

    What we can perceive may tell us there are things we can't perceive.

    Even a small child can intuitively work out that animals perceive things we don't, and thus we know there are many things beyond our perception.

    So am I.

    I'm talking about reality in the natural/scientific sense, nothing to do with religion or the supernatural.

    We are not 'neutrally' observing and measuring reality though, but interpreting limited data and information using a range of technical, conceptual and theoretical frameworks that we hope map on to reality sufficiently to be useful.

    Just like out vision and hearing is limited, in the sciences, we don't take into account things we are ignorant of and are thus not looking for.

    The sciences can help 'expand' our senses, but they are still not showing us reality, just a more detailed, yet incomplete, snapshot of a much larger dataset that we only understand in a limited manner.


    Methods and understanding will improve, sure. But still won't give us "reality".

    This is especially true in the social sciences as we often have to invent things in order to measure them (intelligence, happiness, etc.), but also in the natural sciences due to our limited understanding and limited technologies and methodologies.

    In general it's better to think of them as (hopefully) helping us better understand aspects of the world we live in than thinking they show us "reality".
     
    • Winner Winner x 2
  5. RestlessSoul

    RestlessSoul Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2021
    Messages:
    4,261
    Ratings:
    +3,447
    Religion:
    Agnostic Lapsed Catholic

    If it feels like a stone in your shoe, you can assign a very high probability to it being exactly that. No need to complicate matters unnecessarily.
     
  6. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2018
    Messages:
    22,402
    Ratings:
    +11,612
    Religion:
    None
    That is what i was pointing out re the unnecessary complications you prsented
     
    • Like Like x 1
  7. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2012
    Messages:
    10,955
    Ratings:
    +884
    Religion:
    Messianic Jewish Christianity
    Just (what seems like) a few years ago, most atheists would tell me good and evil are nonexistent abstractions.

    Here, you've taken the argument that doing a deed with nothing to gain is better (or less selfish as you put it) than Christian behavior. Perhaps! Perhaps the Christian is seeking to honor their Creator and the atheist seeks to honor themselves only, but you are making a metaphysical intangible judgment of relative goodness. How is that possible?
     
  8. KWED

    KWED Scratching head, scratching knee

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2021
    Messages:
    4,447
    Ratings:
    +3,110
    Religion:
    None
    I asked you to explain that, not simply repeat the original claim.

    Hardly intangible metaphysics.
    A helps others because the others need help.
    B helps others because B will be rewarded if they do, or punished if they don't.
    B's position is based on self-interest, A's is based on helping others.
    Hardly rocket science.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  9. PureX

    PureX Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2006
    Messages:
    20,986
    Ratings:
    +10,681
    Religion:
    Philosophical Taoist/Christian
    [QUOTE="KWED, post: 7520426, member: 73255A helps others because the others need help.
    B helps others because B will be rewarded if they do, or punished if they don't.
    B's position is based on self-interest, A's is based on helping others.
    Hardly rocket science.[/QUOTE]I think there is some truth to this.

    However, I also think a lot of Christians also do 'good' for it''s own sake, just as anyone else might.
     
  10. lukethethird

    lukethethird Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2018
    Messages:
    2,842
    Ratings:
    +1,404
    Religion:
    Xian
    Yes, rendering God superfluous.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  11. PureX

    PureX Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2006
    Messages:
    20,986
    Ratings:
    +10,681
    Religion:
    Philosophical Taoist/Christian
    To whom?

    Oh, I forgot, YOU are the determiner of what matters to all the world and it's people.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  12. RestlessSoul

    RestlessSoul Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2021
    Messages:
    4,261
    Ratings:
    +3,447
    Religion:
    Agnostic Lapsed Catholic

    To you, perhaps.

    Yet here you are, on something called Religious forums, so perhaps not, eh?
     
  13. KWED

    KWED Scratching head, scratching knee

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2021
    Messages:
    4,447
    Ratings:
    +3,110
    Religion:
    None
    They might do. The problem is there is no way of knowing.
    Perhaps religionists could pray to their god to not include particular good deeds in their account for heaven.
    I wonder if the same principle could apply to bad deeds as well?
     
  14. rational experiences

    rational experiences Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2020
    Messages:
    8,379
    Ratings:
    +472
    Religion:
    spiritualist
    If men of science stopped talking and listened.

    You are ....a.....human..first.

    Science...a...chosen...

    Human practice belief.

    Human first is not science.

    Plain fact of human life.

    If only you would stop talking theist.
     
  15. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2018
    Messages:
    22,402
    Ratings:
    +11,612
    Religion:
    None
    Its cultural anthropology
     
  16. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2012
    Messages:
    10,955
    Ratings:
    +884
    Religion:
    Messianic Jewish Christianity
    Again, born agains help other people because they love God--I only very rarely think in terms of punishment or blessing, just like a adult, not a child, pleases a parent or spouse because of love and care, not "they'll get me if I don't".

    PS. Your moral code is backward--I'm good because I did something I'm not obligated to do... whereas Christ points out "When you make a feast, don't invite just friends, invite the homeless, the lost . . . "
     
    • Like Like x 1
  17. RestlessSoul

    RestlessSoul Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2021
    Messages:
    4,261
    Ratings:
    +3,447
    Religion:
    Agnostic Lapsed Catholic

    Have you learned anything yet?
     
  18. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2018
    Messages:
    22,402
    Ratings:
    +11,612
    Religion:
    None
    Yes, quite a bit about the habits, beliefs, and
    thought processes of Christians of divers sorts,
    and fervent religionists of other faiths as well.

    In the USA most encounters with Christians
    were with " campus crusade", types, who I
    quickly learned to avoid.

    Looking puzzled then speaking Cantonese was a good way to deal with people trying to
    missionary me.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  19. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2018
    Messages:
    22,402
    Ratings:
    +11,612
    Religion:
    None
    Huh. Thought it wuz you.
     
  20. PureX

    PureX Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2006
    Messages:
    20,986
    Ratings:
    +10,681
    Religion:
    Philosophical Taoist/Christian
    Who needs to know?

    Also, most people feel good when they believe they've done something good. So it's not like it's only the 'heaven bound' that are being self-serving. The reason good is good is because it's good for everyone.
     
Loading...