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Featured New Atheists?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Policy, Jan 12, 2022.

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  1. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    Please name them because i for one don't believe that is a true statement. You can, if you are too embarrassed, pm me your list. Then we can ask them whether that is a true statement or not
     
    #221 ChristineM, Jan 14, 2022
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  2. Augustus

    Augustus the Unreasonable

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    Religion is a crutch. The problem is not that many atheists see religion as a crutch, it's that they are ignorant of the fact their own ideology is also a crutch.

    What is the value of a belief system if not to make the world seem better?
     
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  3. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Abnormal before it was fashionable
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    Atheism doesn't make the world seem better or otherwise to me.
    It's simply a compelling state of mind.
    A "crutch"?
    Nah.
    It offers me nothing.
     
    #223 Revoltingest, Jan 14, 2022
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  4. KWED

    KWED Scratching head, scratching knee

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    Question begging.
    The issue is whether the term "New Atheist" is justified, so you can't use the term as evidence of "types of atheist". In reality, a "New Atheist" is just an atheist. Whether an atheist keeps their atheism to themselves, or shouts it from the rooftops, the principle is exactly the same. A rejection of the existence of gods. They do not believe different things.

    So not to do with their atheism.
    Obviously atheists can differ widely. An atheist can follow any ideology, as long as it doesn't involve belief in gods - but this does not define or affect their atheism.
    A Tory atheist and a Labour atheists are the same "atheist", but they have different political beliefs.

    :tearsofjoy:
    Of course they are.

    I have not mentioned Harris.

    You seem quite upset about these "New Atheists". Did your girlfriend run off with one, or something?
     
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  5. F1fan

    F1fan Well-Known Member

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    A religious scientist can do reputable and credible work, but they have to set all religious ideas aside. This is why the biologist Behe lost his credibility with his constant insistence that Intelligent Design was a real phenomenon. He admitted under oath in the Dover, PA lawsuit that ID isn't science.

    Different cultures had different insights. Did you know the arch was known to be an architectural success in the Roman Empire, but in Asia it was never discovered and used?

    If there is some divine influence, as you are certainly suggesting (without any evidence) we would see it consistent as humans developed civilizations. We don't. We see how cultures had their own discoveries and insights, and as they progressed they built on these discoveries. No magic involved.

    An ancient guy was on to something. It's an anomaly. How did the ancient guy make use of the idea to benefit humanity? It didn't. If he discovered micro-organisms and sanitary methods through divine seeing, not that would have saved lives. It didn't happen. Not until the 19th century and the microscope was invented. God didn't have to create micro-organisms, did it? Since it did, why not a heads up to primitive people about them?

    Let me guess, God's subtle 5,000 year long lesson for humans to learn to wash their hands before dinner. Or maybe there is some obscure Bible reference to the "unseen" and that must be referring to micro-organisms.

    This is what we atheists deal with in debate.
     
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  6. Augustus

    Augustus the Unreasonable

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    Atheism isn't an ideology...
     
  7. Sheldon

    Sheldon Well-Known Member

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    It's like saying the doctrine of not collecting stamps, then citing someone who said something, who also doesn't happen to collect stamps, of course you might find a few people who agree broadly on a few topics, and they also happen not to collect stamps, that doesn't mean the things they agree on represent a doctrine for people who don't collect stamps.

    It's perhaps understandable, but theists view atheism as an important decision, but atheists I have read and spoken to generally don't, I only disbelieve in one more deity than most theists after all. If theism didn't come with some pernicious beliefs and ideas, and theists never tried to claim to know what a deity wants from us, I seriously doubt I'd ever mention my lack of belief.
     
    #227 Sheldon, Jan 14, 2022
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  8. F1fan

    F1fan Well-Known Member

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    Magical meaning creative, not necessarily religious, yes?

    And science is honest about not answering "why". It doesn't create an answer and sell it as truth. It informs us about how things are.

    But let's note, science does take a lot of creativity. This is how advances are made. It's just that the ideas have to be tested and verified FIRST.
     
  9. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Abnormal before it was fashionable
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    It's an ideology in the way that not collecting scrap iron is a hobby.

    (Updated the old cliche for @ChristineM.)
     
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  10. Sheldon

    Sheldon Well-Known Member

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    I've read Dawkins, Harris, and Hitchens's books, I can't say I noticed atheism being rebranded, I mean it's a pretty simple concept to disbelieve something, they may have voiced some of their own ideas and even beliefs on theism, so what?
     
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  11. Sheldon

    Sheldon Well-Known Member

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    Yo, s'up? Oh you mean the poet Shelley, as you were.

    I don't believe poetry or great literature requires magic, other than in a very laboured metaphor. Nor have I ever seen a so called new atheist suggest we have to choose between scientific technology and literature?

    Tucking the why all the way back there was clever, kudos, but it remains a begging the question fallacy, since we don't know there is a why. Of course Stephen Hawking was also an atheist, so it's unlikely he intended the question to mean what you seem to be implying here. You should also stick a yet in there, as you can't know what science may help us understand in the future.
     
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  12. Augustus

    Augustus the Unreasonable

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    The term is justified if it points to something meaningful and people can use it to convey information. Your post illustrates you haven't worked out what it is pointing to.

    It may be beyond your grasp, but others manage to use it just fine in this manner.

    As I said, don't qualify the term and people complain, qualify the term and they still complain.

    :handpointdown:

    You don't actually think he is right do you?

    Yes, in the above video Sam Harris is totally in line with scholarly consensus :facepalm:

    You never see New Atheist types parroting Conflict Thesis nonsense either. They are all massively knowledgeable and completely rational because they say they are rational sceptics.

    Odd comment.

    They are more comical than upsetting...
     
  13. RestlessSoul

    RestlessSoul Well-Known Member

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    If we were standing in a forest, would you really ask me to point out a tree?
     
  14. Augustus

    Augustus the Unreasonable

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    Whether you have a religious worldview or an irreligious one, you still hold to an ideology to make sense of the world.
     
  15. Sheldon

    Sheldon Well-Known Member

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    Belief system? I know of course I have a belief system, and that it is necessarily atheistic, but atheism is not itself a belief system. I also don't understand the last sentence sorry, didn't you just accept that atheism is not an ideology, or am I misunderstanding?

    I'd also argue that one can pursue the truth for it's own sake, it doesn't have to make you feel better at all. I'd like to think I care more whether what I believe is true, than how it makes me feel. Though of course entirely eradicating subjective bias is impossible, but one can strive to be as objective as possible. Species evolution is not a cheerful idea, I don't accept it because it makes me feel better, you'd need to be slightly insane.
     
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  16. Sheldon

    Sheldon Well-Known Member

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    I agree, but the way you worded it might have been misread as implying atheism is an ideology. I wasn't sure, but yes I have an ideology, as do we all, though I doubt I could label it, and yes it encompasses my atheism, as it would have to.
     
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  17. Augustus

    Augustus the Unreasonable

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    If only someone had coined a term that referred to a specific movement comprised of atheists promoting a certain ideological outlook with the express purpose of differentiating their views from simple atheism... ;)
     
  18. RestlessSoul

    RestlessSoul Well-Known Member

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    Probably. Perhaps we could agree on the definition given by the OP in the Scientism on Wikipedia thread. But that still wouldn’t get us anywhere, because the apologists for dogmatic hardline atheism would claim nothing fitted the description. Isn’t that a No True Scotsman fallacy? I know how you love to claim “fallacy”.

    So probably best to let it go. Won’t be long though, you can bet, before yet another atheist declares religion dead and “Science” the victor, in a combat that never happened.

    Incidentally, I am aware that a lot of the antipathy towards religion from some quarters, is down to creationism vs evolution. For the record, I think creationists are deluded (though the universe does appear to have a had a moment of creation, 14 billion years ago).
     
    #238 RestlessSoul, Jan 14, 2022
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2022
  19. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

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    To believe in God, soul, heaven, hell, end of days, judgement, resurrection, reincarnation, deliverance, etc.; a scientist will have to make huge compromises. There are no revelations in Hinduism, Upanishads or Gita, and there has been none to 'reveal' anything. This is a monotheist/Abrahamic thing. Sure, Hindu/Buddhist analysis of things and philosophy is second to none. Sure, I too talk about impossibility of any God/Goddess or soul to exist. Discussions are interesting. However, I am not one to be impressed by mention of names. Buddha said in 'Kesamutti Sutta' that one should think for his/herself.
     
  20. Augustus

    Augustus the Unreasonable

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    You can have a religious ideology or an irreligious one. Replacing a religious ideology with an irreligious one is still a crutch.

    And there is nothing wrong with that. Or ability to change the world through stories is perhaps the defining human trait.

    People can try, yes, but they construct narratives to make the world more palatable.

    They might talk about a responsibility to future generations, or that being 'less wrong' is important and noble, or that they are more virtuous than the greedy billionaire who exploits people to further their own aims or whatever else gets them through the night.

    These are not in any way 'true' though, they are just things we tell ourselves to feel better.
     
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