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Never happened

Rival

Si m'ait Dieus
Staff member
Premium Member
Mark 9:30-32
Then they departed from there and passed through Galilee, and he did not want anyone to know it. For he taught His disciples and said to them, “The Son of Man is being betrayed into the hands of men, and they will kill him. And after he is killed, he will rise the third day.” But they did not understand this saying, and were afraid to ask him.

Matthew 20:17-19
Now Jesus, going up to Jerusalem, took the twelve disciples aside on the road and said to them, “Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be betrayed to the chief priests and to the scribes; and they will condemn him to death, and deliver him to the gentiles to mock and to scourge and to crucify. And the third day he will rise again.”
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
Jesus wasn’t crucified. He was too wise to allow that to happen.
I am of the opinion that the actual culmination of the crucifixion came as a surprise even to Jesus himself. In other words, I am of the opinion that Jesus bought into his own propaganda, and thought all the way up to the end that God would produce a miraculous escape or some miracle that proved to everyone on the scene that they were making a mistake. And as evidence, I would point to Jesus' own words: "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" Why not something like "With this, it is done - the plan come to fruition."? Some finality that draws it all together and gives at least some paltry evidence that those present who were torturing and killing Jesus were only further consecrating God's plan? Very, very strange - and all of the apologetics I have read on this particular issue and quote leave me completely unsatisfied. There are no good excuses, in other words - there are only bad ones. It makes much more sense when put in the context of Jesus never having expected it to come to that moment of no return.
 

Earthtank

Active Member
Jesus wasn’t crucified. He was too wise to allow that to happen.
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A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
Hmm. John 10:18, ". . . I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father. . . ."
Didn't mention crucifixion there though, did he? The rites by which this command would be fulfilled? This very well could be just a reference to his being willing to lay down his life for his beliefs and cause, and "taking it up again" was something these people talked about literally all the time due to their believing that they were immortal, and would see their resurrection after death for being good little boys and girls.

That said, look how strange John 10:17 is (I'm glad you pointed me to this): "The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again." So his father loves him because he lays down his life - but God (or Jesus) is going to just reverse that anyway. So - of what value is the laying down of the life again? I'm having a hard time seeing it in this context. I'd give my life pretty freely too if I could know for certain I was just going to get back up a few days later. Wouldn't be a big deal at that point, really.
 

37818

Active Member
1. There's no good evidence of any resurrection. There's only hearsay.
2. If there is a resurrection, how is it evidence of a God, or his motivations?
FYI, the evidence of the resurrection are the New Testament books. And actual history for the Passover date. The calendar dates can be calculated today, Here is a tool: Calendar Converter

The additional evidence Christians have through faith in Jesus being the Christ is knowing God through their faith in God's Christ.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
FYI, the evidence of the resurrection are the New Testament books. And actual history for the Passover date.
The New testament books are not evidence, they're stories, folklore, hearsay. All religions and societies have such stories.
How are they evidence? Any such claims today would be laughed at; thrown out of court, &c.

The additional evidence Christians have through faith in Jesus being the Christ is knowing God through their faith in God's Christ.
Argumentum ad populum?
"Faith" -- unsupported belief -- is not evidence. Every society had faith, in all sorts of gods and conflicting beliefs.
What makes the Christian faith in biblical mythology any more likely than old Norse faith in Thor and Valhalla?
Faith is not evidence.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
FYI, the evidence of the resurrection are the New Testament books. And actual history for the Passover date. The calendar dates can be calculated today, Here is a tool: Calendar Converter

The additional evidence Christians have through faith in Jesus being the Christ is knowing God through their faith in God's Christ.
Books are not evidence. Substance is.
 

37818

Active Member
The New testament books are not evidence, they're stories, folklore, hearsay. All religions and societies have such stories.
How are they evidence? Any such claims today would be laughed at; thrown out of court, &c.

Argumentum ad populum?
"Faith" -- unsupported belief -- is not evidence. Every society had faith, in all sorts of gods and conflicting beliefs.
What makes the Christian faith in biblical mythology any more likely than old Norse faith in Thor and Valhalla?
Faith is not evidence.
The New Testament documents are the evidence of Christianity. The New Testament roots is Judaism.

The Bible (66 books) on the whole have claims to be real history. What real history beyond mere stories can you provide for Thor or Valhalla.

As for faith. There is no knowledge about anything without some kind of faith. What do you claim to know to be true that you do not believe?
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The New Testament documents are the evidence of Christianity. The New Testament roots is Judaism.
The existence of Christianity is not in dispute.
The Bible (66 books) on the whole have claims to be real history. What real history beyond mere stories can you provide for Thor or Valhalla.
Many stories are rooted in real history. History is common knowledge. Embedding a narrative within a historical framework is commonplace.
There is both folklore and history in biblical stories. Some are pure fantasy, some are fairly accurate. Most are heavily edited legends.
As for faith. There is no knowledge about anything without some kind of faith. What do you claim to know to be true that you do not believe?
Good point. Nothing outside of mathematics is proven. But some things are well evidenced, observable, tested, reproducible or predictive. Some are pure fantasy with no corroborative evidence, or even discrediting evidence.
Best bet is to follow the best evidence and be prepared to change your beliefs as new evidence emerges.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The New Testament documents are the evidence of Christianity. The New Testament roots is Judaism.
The existence of Christianity is not in dispute.
The Bible (66 books) on the whole have claims to be real history. What real history beyond mere stories can you provide for Thor or Valhalla.
Many stories are rooted in real history. History is common knowledge. Embedding a narrative within a historical framework is commonplace.
There is both folklore and history in biblical stories. Some are pure fantasy, some are fairly accurate. Most are heavily edited legends.
As for faith. There is no knowledge about anything without some kind of faith. What do you claim to know to be true that you do not believe?
Good point. Nothing outside of mathematics is proven. But some things are well evidenced, observable, tested, reproducible or predictive. Some are pure fantasy with no corroborative evidence, or even discrediting evidence.
Best bet is to follow the best evidence and be prepared to change your beliefs as new evidence emerges.
 
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