Neither a Theist nor an Atheist Be?

[syo]

So you - or this hypothetical theist - thinks apatheists believe in gods?

I believe that they don't care at all.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I believe that they don't care at all.

Not the question I asked.

Do you think someone who doesn't care at all about whether gods exists is going to bother putting enough effort into the question to be able to come down definitively on one side or the other?

 

[crossfire]

Apatheists are generally atheists; they just don't care that they're atheists.

A theist could say the exact thing. ''Apatheists are generally theists; they just don't care that they're theists.''

So you - or this hypothetical theist - thinks apatheists believe in gods?

Are self-proclaimed apatheists apathetic to someone else declaring that their self-proclaimed stance of apatheistic is invalid and is actually either atheistic or theistic? Perhaps this is what separates the apatheists from the transtheists?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Are self-proclaimed apatheists apathetic to someone else declaring that their self-proclaimed stance of apatheistic is invalid and is actually either atheistic or theistic?

Pointing out that an apatheist is also an atheist isn't "declaring their self-proclaimed stance invalid." We're talking about two different questions:

- do you believe that gods exist or not?
- does it matter whether gods exist or not?

If anything, atheism and apatheism are very complementary: it makes perfect sense that if someone doesn't even care whether gods exist, they probably wouldn't believe in any gods.

 

[crossfire]

Pointing out that an apatheist is also an atheist isn't "declaring their self-proclaimed stance invalid." We're talking about two different questions:

- do you believe that gods exist or not?
- does it matter whether gods exist or not?

If anything, atheism and apatheism are very complementary: it makes perfect sense that if someone doesn't even care whether gods exist, they probably wouldn't believe in any gods.

Not necessarily. It just might be that they are psychologically prepared to deal with whatever the scenerio may be.

 

[syo]

Not the question I asked.

Do you think someone who doesn't care at all about whether gods exists is going to bother putting enough effort into the question to be able to come down definitively on one side or the other?

I don't understand the question.

But apatheists won't join a religious forum. So we don't know their point of view.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I don't understand the question.

If someone is an apatheist, do you seriously think they would also be a theist?

But apatheists won't join a religious forum. So we don't know their point of view.

We've had a number of self-declared apatheists here.

 

[syo]

If someone is an apatheist, do you seriously think they would also be a theist?


We've had a number of self-declared apatheists here.

Why not? If they were taught about God at a young age? But apatheists aren't theists or atheists.

You had apatheists here?!?!?

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Deists believe in an unaware, non-interacting God.

I don't call anything unaware a god. If you don't believe in a sentient god that acts deliberately, I call you an atheist. What you describe could be a multiverse, which is understood to be an unconscious source of our universe. Give it consciousness and the ability to make universes at will, and I'll it a god and those believing in such things theists.

I want to emphasize here that you needn't use the language the same way I do. Call yourself what you like. I'm telling you what I would call a person according to their beliefs about gods as I define the term. It works for me.

No. The 'Title' and 'idea' emerged in the 18th century. The Deist God has always been there, just like matter and energy has.

Perhaps I should have been more specific. That is what I meant - the deist position became possible and popular once the first wave of scientists demonstrated a clockwork universe needing no god to run it.

But as I indicated, in my experience, people calling themselves deists are referring to a conscious god that did its work but does not participate in our lives - no scripture, no prayers answered, no miracles, etc..

Deists have no home with either Theists or Atheists

You are welcome to join the atheists in my schema. Frankly, if I'm understanding you correctly, I can't tell the difference between what you believe and what I believe. You just call an unconscious source of the universe a god and yourself a deist, whereas I call that unconscious source and myself (and you) atheist.

Are self-proclaimed apatheists apathetic to someone else declaring that their self-proclaimed stance of apatheistic is invalid and is actually either atheistic or theistic?

All of this confusion disappeared for me when I adopted a nomenclature that simply says that everybody is either a theist or an atheist according to their answer to the question about having a god belief. Yes = theist, any other answer = atheist.

Those with any other schema can't understand one another, nor can I understand them. I'm still not sure what Old Badger believes, but had he adopted this manner of communicating, I believe I would. In fact I don't really know what anybody in this thread that answered that it's possible to be neither a theist or an atheist actually believe, but they all know (or should by now) what those of us using the two possible positions MECE schema mean. We're not telling you what to believe, just what we call it, which is easily done by asking one question. No dithering about irrelevancies and failing to communicate.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Why not? If they were taught about God at a young age? But apatheists aren't theists or atheists.

Everyone is either a theist or an atheist. An apatheist is just someone who doesn't care that they're a theist or atheist.

You had apatheists here?!?!?

Yep.

Sometimes they mention it in posts, sometimes it's in the "religion" field of their profile.

Keep in mind that "I don't care whether gods exist" does not equal "I don't think religion is worth discussing."

 

[syo]

An apatheist is just someone who doesn't care that they're a theist or atheist.

You mean ''I have an opinion but I don't care about my opinion'' thing?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

You mean ''I have an opinion but I don't care about my opinion'' thing?

No, I mean that a person either does or doesn't have a belief in a god.

 

[syo]

No, I mean that a person either does or doesn't have a belief in a god.

Nah... This happens, if they are forced to choose. Dictatorship.

 

[lukethethird]

No, I mean that a person either does or doesn't have a belief in a god.

It's meaningless to believe or not believe in a god. Maybe God exists, so what? Maybe God does not exist, so what? Who cares when there is no difference?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

It's meaningless to believe or not believe in a god. Maybe God exists, so what? Maybe God does not exist, so what? Who cares when there is no difference?

An analogy:

I don't care at all whether the number of hairs on my head is even or odd. Despite this, since I do have hairs on my head, the number of hairs is either even or odd; there are no possibilities.

The fact that I don't care doesn't imply that the number of hairs on my head is neither even nor odd.

 

[oldbadger]

I don't call anything unaware a god. If you don't believe in a sentient god that acts deliberately, I call you an atheist. What you describe could be a multiverse, which is understood to be an unconscious source of our universe. Give it consciousness and the ability to make universes at will, and I'll it a god and those believing in such things theists.

I want to emphasize here that you needn't use the language the same way I do. Call yourself what you like. I'm telling you what I would call a person according to their beliefs about gods as I define the term. It works for me.



Perhaps I should have been more specific. That is what I meant - the deist position became possible and popular once the first wave of scientists demonstrated a clockwork universe needing no god to run it.

But as I indicated, in my experience, people calling themselves deists are referring to a conscious god that did its work but does not participate in our lives - no scripture, no prayers answered, no miracles, etc..



You are welcome to join the atheists in my schema. Frankly, if I'm understanding you correctly, I can't tell the difference between what you believe and what I believe. You just call an unconscious source of the universe a god and yourself a deist, whereas I call that unconscious source and myself (and you) atheist.



All of this confusion disappeared for me when I adopted a nomenclature that simply says that everybody is either a theist or an atheist according to their answer to the question about having a god belief. Yes = theist, any other answer = atheist.

Those with any other schema can't understand one another, nor can I understand them. I'm still not sure what Old Badger believes, but had he adopted this manner of communicating, I believe I would. In fact I don't really know what anybody in this thread that answered that it's possible to be neither a theist or an atheist actually believe, but they all know (or should by now) what those of us using the two possible positions MECE schema mean. We're not telling you what to believe, just what we call it, which is easily done by asking one question. No dithering about irrelevancies and failing to communicate.

So you do believe in an unaware uninvolved God, and that all matter and energy is part of that?

That's fine. I call that Deism but I am definitely a nonTheist

 

[lukethethird]

An analogy:

I don't care at all whether the number of hairs on my head is even or odd. Despite this, since I do have hairs on my head, the number of hairs is either even or odd; there are no possibilities.

The fact that I don't care doesn't imply that the number of hairs on my head is neither even nor odd.

Good analogy, the outcome in either case is not relevant to anything.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Good analogy, the outcome in either case is not relevant to anything.

And yet there is an outcome.

 

[lukethethird]

And yet there is an outcome.

Sure there is, but what difference does it make to anything that matters?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Sure there is, but what difference does it make to anything that matters?

What does that matter?