1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Negatives could be proved

Discussion in 'Science and Religion' started by paarsurrey, Aug 27, 2012.

  1. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

    Joined:
    May 9, 2012
    Messages:
    13,063
    Ratings:
    +1,013
    Some people have a blind faith that negatives cannot be proved.

    I think negatives could be proved as could the positives.

    Like one could take somebody into a room to prove that there is nobody in the room.

    With a tester one could prove that no live current of electricity is in a wire.

    Do you agree that negatives could be proved?
     
  2. Gjallarhorn

    Gjallarhorn N'yog-Sothep

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2011
    Messages:
    9,780
    Ratings:
    +967
    Negatives can be proved via lack of evidence.

     
  3. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 15, 2004
    Messages:
    34,737
    Ratings:
    +7,760
    Religion:
    Judaism
    The absense of evidence is often evidence of absense.
     
  4. Draka

    Draka Wonder Woman

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2005
    Messages:
    19,063
    Ratings:
    +4,727
    Religion:
    Lasso of Truth
    However, that does not prove that an intruder does not exist. Only that the watch dog does not detect the intruder. There could be extenuating circumstances as to why the watch dog could not detect that particular intruder.
     
  5. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 15, 2004
    Messages:
    34,737
    Ratings:
    +7,760
    Religion:
    Judaism
    Proof is the domain of law, logic, and liquor.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  6. Gjallarhorn

    Gjallarhorn N'yog-Sothep

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2011
    Messages:
    9,780
    Ratings:
    +967
    ...which is why positive proof is better than negative proof.
     
  7. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 15, 2004
    Messages:
    34,737
    Ratings:
    +7,760
    Religion:
    Judaism
    People need to spend more time appreciating Escher and less time fixating on semantics.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  8. idav

    idav Being
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2011
    Messages:
    15,810
    Ratings:
    +1,684
    Religion:
    Pantheist
    Yes but it is a lot harder to prove and hard to tell if you've covered everything.
     
  9. otokage007

    otokage007 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2011
    Messages:
    1,147
    Ratings:
    +59
    Of course negatives can be proven. When facing a problem, there's always a minimum of two hipothesis:

    Hipothesis 1: X = 1
    Hipothesis 2: X isn't.

    What can not be proven, is the non-existence. There's no possible experimentation to prove that. God doesn't exist, Mermaids don't exist, extraterrestrials don't exist <- All these hipothesis can not be proven because are not sucsceptible to experimentation.

    That's why, in science, we say that when there's no evidence suggesting the existence of something, that thing doesn't exist.
     
  10. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 15, 2004
    Messages:
    34,737
    Ratings:
    +7,760
    Religion:
    Judaism
    :facepalm:


    Science says no such thing, primarily because to do so would be embarrassingly stupid.
     
  11. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Ignorant Atheist Capitalist Engineer Libertarian
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    105,102
    Ratings:
    +21,861
    Religion:
    Vantology
    Positive or negative, I'll judge a proof by how convincing it is.
    Logic is useful for both.
     
  12. otokage007

    otokage007 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2011
    Messages:
    1,147
    Ratings:
    +59
    :facepalm:.........

    Please we are scientists here. When verses of Torah are required, we will let u know.
     
  13. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Ignorant Atheist Capitalist Engineer Libertarian
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    105,102
    Ratings:
    +21,861
    Religion:
    Vantology
    Jay is right.
     
  14. otokage007

    otokage007 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2011
    Messages:
    1,147
    Ratings:
    +59
    lol. Exactly on which part? When he says you can design an experiment with just an hipothesis which is clearly something a person that never worked on the research field would say. Or when he says when science states non-existence is because it has proved it?

    Actually this is the answer to the first part: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Null_hypothesis. What you try to prove with an experiment is a null hypothesis, which is often a negative. If data reject null hypothesis through an stadistic study, your alternative hipothesis is true. Whether you like it or not, you will always have two hypothesis for each experiment: the thing you want to prove, and its alternative.

    And for the second part, it is really simple: mermaids do not exist. Why? Because there's no evidence towards their existence, therefore they do not exist, untill the contrary is proven. That's how science works.
     
    #14 otokage007, Aug 27, 2012
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2012
  15. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2010
    Messages:
    18,155
    Ratings:
    +4,659
    Religion:
    Agnostic
    And mathematics.

    (Seldom does proof in law rise to the level of proof in math and logic.)
     
  16. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Ignorant Atheist Capitalist Engineer Libertarian
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    105,102
    Ratings:
    +21,861
    Religion:
    Vantology
    Quote:
     
  17. Draka

    Draka Wonder Woman

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2005
    Messages:
    19,063
    Ratings:
    +4,727
    Religion:
    Lasso of Truth
    Revoltingest is right about Jay being right.

    Science makes no such claim about something not existing. Only positive claims about what does exist can actually be made. Lack of evidence does not mean evidence against. There can be no claim against the existence of something. It can only be said that there hasn't been any verified evidence found in support of it so far and be left at that.
     
  18. otokage007

    otokage007 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2011
    Messages:
    1,147
    Ratings:
    +59
    Is there evidence about mermaids? No
    Do mermaids exist? No

    I hope this was refusal enough.
     
  19. otokage007

    otokage007 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2011
    Messages:
    1,147
    Ratings:
    +59
    Well of course. That's exactly what I tried to say. Lack of evidence make hipothesis remain hipothesis. If existence is not proven, then that thing doesn't exist untill the contrary is proven. Mermaids do not exist, any scientist will tell you that, when asked why, they will answer: well because there's no evidence suggesting they do.

    And as I said myself on my first post: non existence can not be proven.
     
  20. Draka

    Draka Wonder Woman

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2005
    Messages:
    19,063
    Ratings:
    +4,727
    Religion:
    Lasso of Truth
    Do mermaids exist? Not that we're aware of.
     
Loading...