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Need help with an art mystery

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
You didn't ask me, but ... for me, it's the tunnel perspective of the etching. Looking into a tunnel that either leads to the past or the future. It "calls" me in.
That was exactly the point of gate-pages: inviting in the reader.
 

Terry Sampson

Well-Known Member
You know that you are on you're way to writing an article, if not a book, about the Gate, don't you? I suspect that the Old Ones waiting for us want you to. ;)
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
You know that you are on you're way to writing an article, if not a book, about the Gate, don't you? I suspect that the Old Ones waiting for us want you to. ;)
Well, I am already working on one for my yeshiva's newsletter. It's mostly in my head at the moment. The main subject of the article is writing about Jewish gate pages in general, and at the end I'll add everything I know about this one in particular.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
You didn't ask me, but ... for me, it's the tunnel perspective of the etching. Looking into a tunnel that either leads to the past or the future. It "calls" me in.
I find the gate with a big hole in it very interesting. And in these kinds of things, usually those little emblems, and the kind of plant depicted are significant. Yet I can't identify, either. The image seems to have an air of deliberate obscurity to it.
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
and the kind of plant depicted are significant.
I never thought of checking what plant that is, but that's an interesting idea.
From my research, the general idea of the vases is that they're meant to look like house-plants, which symbolize this book as something that should be part of every household (which it is in many religious Jewish homes).
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
I find the gate with a big hole in it very interesting.
Oh, the hole is where the title was printed. I just posted a version without the title. Here's a titled version:
upload_2020-2-13_19-30-18.png


And since this was based off of synagogue arks, were this an ark, the hole is where the Torah scrolls would've been kept and would be covered by a piece of cloth.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
I've noticed that the linear perspective is significantly off between the columns and the rest of the 'structure', and on that odd 'broken' pediment at the top. The columns have one vanishing point, while the structure has a very different one. And the pediment has a different vanishing point for each side.

When visual perspective was realized and worked out in the 1400s, artists sometimes applied different points of view to different subject-content to signify different ideological 'realms' in their paintings, mosaics, reliefs, etc.,. Often giving divine beings, angels, and saints one linear perspective, and humans, the Earth, etc., another, and even another for demons, the damned, and hell, below. This appears very confused and incongruous to us, today, as we're used to seeing images with integral cohesive points of perspective (as in photographs and modern paintings. etc.). But this was not the case for most viewers in centuries past. They were not subjected to that same onslaught of imagery that we are, today.

I don't think this is nearly that old, and I see no ideological reason for the discrepancy in perspectives for the various 'parts' of the image. So I would suspect the artist was not as well trained as he might otherwise have been. I also see in your latest image that the emblems were purely decorative, and carry no ideological meaning, either. And I think that business at the bottom left is not 'hidden text'. I think it may be damage repair, or a name-change that occurred when the ownership of the plate changed.
 
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Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
I don't think this is nearly that old
I'm pretty sure it's not, but was probably made specifically for this late-19th century printing. But this is just a guess based on not being able to find older copies of this.
So I would suspect the artist was not as well trained as he might otherwise have been.
Very interesting. I'm surprised that the Romm Press, who spent a fortune making this Talmud (all the work is described at the end of the last tractate), gave the title-page job to a newbie artist. On the other hand, I think I remember reading today that during this period, it was illegal for non-Russians to study art in art schools. One Russian-trained artist decided he didn't care and opened a free art school in Lithuania (maybe in Vilna, but I don't remember). This Russian ban might explain this artist's inexperience.
On the other hand, though, after what @Terry Sampson wrote about tunnel vision, I realized that I don't think I'd seen any other Baroque-style gate pages that were "3-d" like this, but rather flat in design. This appears to have been what we would call in Hebrew a "chiddush", a novelty in Jewish title-page design. So he might've been inexperienced, but he was certainly creative.
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
When visual perspective was realized and worked out in the 1400s, artists sometimes applied different points of view to different subject-content to signify different ideological 'realms' in their paintings, mosaics, reliefs, etc.,. Often giving divine beings, angels, and saints one linear perspective, and humans, the Earth, etc., another, and even another for demons, the damned, and hell, below.
Hey @PureX, do you have some examples you could show me? Or maybe an article on the subject?
 

Terry Sampson

Well-Known Member
I've noticed that the linear perspective is significantly off between the columns

Ahhh, "perspective" ... fascinating subject. Been looking at it for close to 72 years and don't remember spending much time, if any, reflecting on the meaning/symbolism/ideological variations associated with different perspectives, ... but that makes sense to me.

I have yet to find "the mother of all textbooks" on perspective, but I just now came across The Project Gutenberg eBook of The Theory and Practice of Perspective, by George Adolphus Storey
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Hey @PureX, do you have some examples you could show me? Or maybe an article on the subject?
Three point perspective ... LINK

Symbolism in art ... LINK (The list would be nearly endless, of course.)

Prior to artists discovering the mechanics of perspective they tended to establish size relationships in their paintings by ideological importance.

Doom-Paintings-Medieval-St-Thomas-Church-Salisbury-300x213.jpg


Grand-Duke-of-Lithuania-and-Polish-king-Jagiello-and-his-wife-Queen-Jadwiga-of-Poland-university-museum-of-Krakow.jpg
 

Terry Sampson

Well-Known Member
@Harel13

Curiosity led me to play with your initial image in a Microsoft Word document format. My brief exercise results are attached, in MS Word document format and in PDF format.
Interesting. The exercise, using "shapes" and trying to replicate principle lines and angles in the picture, drew my attention to things not readily noticed by my untrained eye.
My primary goal was to see if I could find a single focal point or the primary focal lines in the original picture. My results didn't reveal the focal point but led me, generally, I think,
to the principal focal lines, and--if I'm not mistaken--to the conclusion that the artist's work was mostly (if not completely) freehand. Using a metal or wooden straight-edge
is risky in etching because one doesn't want to scratch the plate moving the straight-edge around on or near the plate.

Not certain, but seems like the artist decreased proportions of things more in the upper "half" than in the lower half. I think Purex was referring to that.

What's interesting, also, is "the fence" or "the gate" in your picture, which is not in most of the other images that use it. I have a theory about that ... very speculative. There was and is a "Vilnius Gate" in Vilna. Its called "The Gate of Dawn", "It was built between 1503 and 1522 as a part of defensive fortifications for the city of Vilnius, the capital of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania. It has also been known as the Medininkai Gate, as it led to the village Medininkai south of Vilnius, as well as Aštra broma.[1] Of ten city gates, only the Gate of Dawn remains, while the others were destroyed by the order of the government at the end of the 18th century." Gate of Dawn - Wikipedia.
So here's my theory: Only, the Vilna Gate image actually used by the Romm publishing house, has the gate in the image. Publishers outside of Vilnius omitted the gate in their artwork. So, if you see the gate in the Vilna Gate in a book, the book was printed in Vilnius; if you don't, it wasn't.

What I find interesting about the Vilnius Gate of Dawn needs to be seen in a photograph like this one:

489px-Gate_of_Dawn_Exterior,_Vilnius,_Lithuania_-_Diliff.jpg


Yes, that's a chapel above "the gate", dedicated to the Virgin Mary. Not relevant to Jewish interests, " The Chapel in the Gate of Dawn contains an icon of The Blessed Virgin Mary Mother of Mercy, said to have miraculous powers.[3] For centuries the picture has been one of the symbols of the city and an object of veneration for both Roman Catholic and Orthodox inhabitants. Thousands of votive offerings adorn the walls and many pilgrims from neighboring countries come to pray in front of the beloved painting."

So, Vilnius,Lithuania, was a really important city in terms of religion ... to Christians of that part of Europe AND, as I just learned today, TO JEWS.
Check this out: Great Synagogue of Vilna, Ravaged by Foes, Yields Treasures and a Priceless Hebrew Inscription | Live Science

Screenshot_2020-02-15.png


Inside the buried remains of the Great Synagogue of Vilna in Lithuania, archaeologists have found a priceless inscription, colorful floors, piles of coins and parts of the bimah (bee-ma) — the structure where the Torah is read and Jewish services are led, according to the Israel Antiquities Authority (IAA).

The findings are remarkable because the synagogue, historically referred to as the "Jerusalem of the North," was badly burned during World War II and later razed by the Lithuanian Soviet authorities in 1957, said Jon Seligman, the director of the synagogue's excavation and an archaeologist with the IAA.

"The Great Synagogue is the most important synagogue of Lithuania," Seligman told Live Science. "It became no less than the cathedral of the Jews of the city."

=====
What a trip, eh?

And I'm led onward ....

Vilnius was the residence of "the Vilna Gaon", you probably already knew that.
I already knew, from previous exposure to Hasidic literature an hisory, that the Vilna Gaon was the mitnagdic rabbi who gave the early Hasidim such a hard time in Lithuania. So, I was meandering through some of the history of Vilnius leading up to the Romm publishing house activity of the early 1800s, and came across the titles of some HaGra's book titles and one intrigued me: Nefesh HaTzimtzum. So happens that Avinoam Fraenkel published a 2 volume set containing:
  • Nefesh HaTzimtzum, Volume 1: Rabbi Chaim Volozhin’s Nefesh HaChaim with Translation and Commentary (1) Hardcover – December 21, 2015
  • Nefesh HaTzimtzum, Volume 2: Understanding Nefesh HaChaim through the Key Concept of Tzimtzum and Related Writings (2) Hardcover – December 21, 2015
And now I want to know more about HaTzimtzum.
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
So, Vilnius,Lithuania, was a really important city in terms of religion ... to Christians of that part of Europe AND, as I just learned today, TO JEWS.
Vilna was known by Ashkenazi Jews for many years as "Yerushalayim d'Lita", "Jerusalem of Lithuania". Just so you understand how central the city was to European Jews.
So here's my theory: Only, the Vilna Gate image actually used by the Romm publishing house, has the gate in the image. Publishers outside of Vilnius omitted the gate in their artwork. So, if you see the gate in the Vilna Gate in a book, the book was printed in Vilnius; if you don't, it wasn't.
I don't know if I'm following correctly, but you surmise that because gates were an important them of Vilna, the Vilna gate actually has a little gate drawn on it? Even though the basic idea of the gate is to just symbolize a gate based on the verse "This is the gate of the LORD; the righteous shall enter into it."?
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
BTW, I hope I'll be able to go later this week to Israel's National Library, where I hope I'll be able to dig up more info. But meanwhile, still combing the internet and theorizing ideas.
 

Terry Sampson

Well-Known Member
Vilna Gate - Google Drive
Just so you understand how central the city was to European Jews.
That's begun "to dawn" on me ... big time.
I don't know if I'm following correctly, but you surmise that because gates were an important them of Vilna, the Vilna gate actually has a little gate drawn on it?
Close. Because Vilna/Vilnius was such an important city, and it's gates and fortification had been so important to its defense, "gates" were an important symbol.
Even though the basic idea of the gate is to just symbolize a gate based on the verse "This is the gate of the LORD; the righteous shall enter into it."?
Indubitably, IMO, that significant symbolic value of "the gate" concept would seem to me to have been its primary value. However, the physical gates of the city of Vilnius and the icity's importance to European Jews added to the primary value. There's a "multiple-entendre" meaning in "the gate" symbol" happening that has captured my imagination. But, like I said, ... "my theory" is very speculative and--for me--thought-provoking. :)

BTW, I forgot to attach what I intended to attach to my last message. See if this link takes you to PDF, Word, and JPEG files. If not, let me know.
Vilna Gate - Google Drive
 
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Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
a_ignore_q_80_w_1000_c_limit_1.jpg

Here's a title-page from a book called "Shaar Yissachar" (the gate of Issachar), and though the design is much simpler and even less gate-like, it actually has the verse "This is the gate of the LORD; the righteous shall enter into it." written above the arch, on either side of the crown.
 

Terry Sampson

Well-Known Member
Here's a title-page
  • ;) Gentle reminder: I did say that my theory is very speculative;
  • As initially conceived, it is true, my theory didn't include your contention which is that "the gate" concept arises from, is associated with, and is rooted in the concept of "the gate of the LORD".
  • However, when you told me that, my theory immediately embraced your information and gave it priority, but not exclusivity.
  • My unimportant theory falls with the first printings of the Vilna page that were printed "outside of Vilnius, Lithuania".
    • In which case, your information to me remains and my speculation in addition to your information is proven false.
  • So, ... that said, in what city was the page in your image printed?
 
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