Neat Video Explaining the Evidence of Our Relationship To the Other Great Apes

[Muslim-UK]

Let's also not forget: Women are virtual slaves, forbidden to drive, to own property, to even go outside alone.

Nothing to do with the Qur'an

And atheists, homosexuals and other "undesirables" are routinely beaten and murdered out of hand--without a peep from the "authorities".

As above

And if you are a girl? Forget about getting an education-- not going to happen, unless you break the law, and risk getting brutally raped and then murdered. Or as a minimum: acid tossed in your face.

As above

Tell me again how "civilized" these places are? And why are there so many refugees from those countries to anywhere but a country run by islam's brutal rules?

This is a political question. More refugees seek aid from Countries like Jordan, Egypt, Turkey, Saudi Arabia and other Muslim Countries than come to Europe. Furthermore most of the single men leaving Africa appear to be doing so for economic reasons.

btw I don't think you actually understand your own beliefs. Do you agree or disagree with the following statements:

1. The universe is purely material. It is strictly natural, and there is no such thing as the supernatural (e.g. gods or spiritual forces).

2. The universe is scientific. It is observable, knowable and governed strictly by the laws of physics.

3. The universe is impersonal. It does not a have consciousness or a will, nor is it guided by a consciousness or a will.

Let me know.

 

[Looncall]

Nothing to do with the Qur'an

As above

As above

This is a political question. More refugees seek aid from Countries like Jordan, Egypt, Turkey, Saudi Arabia and other Muslim Countries than come to Europe. Furthermore most of the single men leaving Africa appear to be doing so for economic reasons.

btw I don't think you actually understand your own beliefs. Do you agree or disagree with the following statements:

1. The universe is purely material. It is strictly natural, and there is no such thing as the supernatural (e.g. gods or spiritual forces).

2. The universe is scientific. It is observable, knowable and governed strictly by the laws of physics.

3. The universe is impersonal. It does not a have consciousness or a will, nor is it guided by a consciousness or a will.

Let me know.

"Nothing to do with the quran". So why is religion that follows the quran unable to suppress these evils which are particular to muslim societies? I don't buy your cop-out.

As far as I have been able to observe, your B items are a good summary of the way things actually are. Admirably clearly expressed, too.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Do you agree or disagree with the following statements:

1. The universe is purely material. It is strictly natural, and there is no such thing as the supernatural (e.g. gods or spiritual forces).

2. The universe is scientific. It is observable, knowable and governed strictly by the laws of physics.

3. The universe is impersonal. It does not a have consciousness or a will, nor is it guided by a consciousness or a will.

While you're waiting for Bob's reply, I can give you mine:

1. The universe may be purely physical - a more descriptive term than material for the known aspects of reality - meaning that there may be nothing in it not manifest as energy, matter, force, space, or time. It is possible that consciousness is not accounted for by those five, and constitutes a sixth element of reality, one that can also be called natural if not physical. It is an act of faith to insist on there being more.

2. Same as 1. That may be true, but not necessarily. The laws of physics may include exotic laws not manifest to us.

3. Again, maybe. At this time, there is no evidence for a universal consciousness or will, and no apparent need to presume that the universe must or even can have one

To invoke more than what I have said would require either a direct encounter with a reality beyond the physical, or else uncovering physical phenomena that cannot be accounted for naturalistically.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Nothing to do with the Qur'an

No True Scotsman logical fallacy.

Your claim does not explain my points: All countries where the quoran is the Law Of The Land?

Exhibit these (and often worse) properties to a greater or lessor degree:

## women are property, have no individual rights, and are treated badly
## non-muslims are often killed out of hand, with no repercussions
## girl-children are not allowed to be educated, and are married (sold) off as soon as possible.
## anyone attempting to leave the religion is abused or killed
## basic human rights are ignored
## only muslim men are given rights of any degree--- and even those are subject to loss, if they run afoul of the "leadership"

You can claim "nothing to do with quoran" all day long. I go by results.

If the quoran was truly a useful book on how to be a better person? We would never see these atrocities in Islamic-ruled countries... would we?

No-- the god of that book would See To It, that his Good Name was not besmirched in such a horrible way.

It is the very least a god could be expected to do!

 

[Muslim-UK]

While you're waiting for Bob's reply, I can give you mine:

1. The universe may be purely physical - a more descriptive term than material for the known aspects of reality - meaning that there may be nothing in it not manifest as energy, matter, force, space, or time. It is possible that consciousness is not accounted for by those five, and constitutes a sixth element of reality, one that can also be called natural if not physical. It is an act of faith to insist on there being more.

2. Same as 1. That may be true, but not necessarily. The laws of physics may include exotic laws not manifest to us.

3. Again, maybe. At this time, there is no evidence for a universal consciousness or will, and no apparent need to presume that the universe must or even can have one

To invoke more than what I have said would require either a direct encounter with a reality beyond the physical, or else uncovering physical phenomena that cannot be accounted for naturalistically.

Ok so for a Atheist bar evidence showing a conscious will, a 6th hidden element or some exotic law manifesting itself, 1,2 and 3 have to be taken as I've presented them. Even if something unexplained was stumbled upon, science would eventually explain it away too as far as a non believer is concerned.

Given the above, you as a unbeliever must think everything that came into being on Earth Billions of years ago did so purely by chance?

If so, and of course it must be, then our sole purpose is like everything else on the Planet, to survive and reproduce our DNA as mentioned in post 173:

"We are machines built by DNA whose purpose is to make more copies of the same DNA Flowers are for the same thing as everything else in the living kingdoms, for spreading ‘copy – me’ programmes about, written in DNA language."

"That is EXACTLY what we are for. We are machines for propagating DNA, and the propagation of DNA is a self sustaining process. It is every living objects’ sole reason for living…"

[R. Dawkins, (1991) Christmas Lectures Study Guide, p. 21]

“No species, ours included, possesses a purpose beyond the imperatives created by its genetic history.”
—Edward O. Wilson

“Modern science directly implies that there ... is no ultimate meaning for humans.”
—William Provine

These are prominent Naturalists, Humanists, Atheists.

Let's see if Bob agrees and if not, why not.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

btw I don't think you actually understand your own beliefs.

Oh, I understand my "beliefs" quite well: I do not have any. Not how YOU mean it.

Sorry to disappoint you. Your attempt at an ambush falls flat on it's face-- for a failure to apply.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Do you agree or disagree with the following statements:

1. The universe is purely material. It is strictly natural, and there is no such thing as the supernatural (e.g. gods or spiritual forces).

2. The universe is scientific. It is observable, knowable and governed strictly by the laws of physics.

3. The universe is impersonal. It does not a have consciousness or a will, nor is it guided by a consciousness or a will.

Let me know.

Maybe. Now, what?

 

[Muslim-UK]

No True Scotsman logical fallacy.

Your claim does not explain my points: All countries where the quoran is the Law Of The Land?

No. Take for example Saudi Arabia:
A deal was struck between the House of Al- Saud and a sheikh called Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab.

Wahabi would be allowed to implement his extreme form of Islam in return for allowing the House of Saud to rule as a Kingdom. This led to women's rights being limited, banned from driving etc.

Remember the Prophet pbuh was married to a women who ran her own business, had her own income and travelled about freely.
Another of the Prophet's wives was the first Scholar of Islam

The Qur'an explains women are free to work and keep their income to spend as they please. It's up to them if they want to contribute towards the house hold expenses, as many elect to do. However it's actually the man's responsibility to work and provide for his family.

There have been Countries in the Muslim world that had female rulers of state, women drive, go to university and run their own businesses too. This is why you can't point to people and write off a religion based on their actions.

In the Indian subcontinent, culture is mixed with religion. Women are attacked for dishonouring the family name. The Qur'an forbids a Muslim from hitting the face of a combatant, and utterly condemns mutilating a body. How much more so for people who attack with acid? Incidentally acid attacks are on the increase amongst non Muslims here in the UK.

Acid attack hospital admissions have almost doubled in last 10 years

There is also no compulsion in religion.

People could point out BMW is a rubbish brand of car as people are always crashing them. Blame the driver, not the car is what any sensible person would say.

If the quoran was truly a useful book on how to be a better person? We would never see these atrocities in Islamic-ruled countries... would we?

No-- the god of that book would See To It, that his Good Name was not besmirched in such a horrible way.

It is the very least a god could be expected to do!

The Qur'an grabs people by the heart and manifests itself as divinely true.

Like Lauren Booth, why ARE modern British career women converting to Islam? | Daily Mail Online

People from all walks of life embrace Islam every year. Intelligent people from comfortable backgrounds recognise the truth behind the concept of Worshipping One God, a simple way to pray and connect to the divine. A simple way of life, that explains we are only here on a short journey before we return to our Creator.

When I return to God, will I be asked to explain acid attacks, women being mistreated, apostates being killed etc etc? Of course not. I can only sign petitions and email various embassies.

I follow Islam in the way it's been laid out in the Qur'an. My children have educations, wife has her own income, and despite me showing clear evidences to my children and explaining the religion to them, they are free to follow what they like when they are older. Every soul accounts for their own actions.

Only irrationality leads a person to reject something without first checking the information for themselves.

And if you have read the sources for yourself and concluded it's not for you, then again we have mutual respect for our individual ways of lives, and leave it at that.

 

[leibowde84]

Yes you are right in part. As the exchange of information passed back and forth on this thread, I read the links and found that the Scientists are disputing whether these earlier 'Homo Sapiens' can be classed as such, or whether a better term for these ancient skeletons should be Homo sapiens idaltu. At the end of the day, we simply don't know.

All I can tell you is, no dates are given in the Qur'an, and we know other creation existed on the Earth before us. The current 7 Billion Humans on Earth can likely trace our collective DNA back to a single group of humans going back 50/60,000 years.
http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2016...-trace-back-single-migration-more-50000-years

But, Homo Sapiens Idaltu would still be Homo Sapiens (a subgroup is still part of the main group). And, none of this even points to there ever being an adam and eve type situation.

 

[Polymath257]

btw I don't think you actually understand your own beliefs. Do you agree or disagree with the following statements:

1. The universe is purely material. It is strictly natural, and there is no such thing as the supernatural (e.g. gods or spiritual forces).

With this, I agree.

2. The universe is scientific.

It is observable, knowable and governed strictly by the laws of physics.

Not completely sure about this one. What I can say is that anything that can be known about the universe is known through observation and the universe works through laws of physics. I don't know what you mean by 'strict' here since many of the laws are probabilistic.

3. The universe is impersonal.

It does not a have consciousness or a will, nor is it guided by a consciousness or a will.

Well, *parts* of the universe have consciousness (like humans, for example), but no, I wouldn't say that the universe as a whole is conscious or has a will.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

No. Take for example Saudi Arabia:
A deal was struck between the House of Al- Saud and a sheikh called Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab.

Wahabi would be allowed to implement his extreme form of Islam in return for allowing the House of Saud to rule as a Kingdom. This led to women's rights being limited, banned from driving etc.

Remember the Prophet pbuh was married to a women who ran her own business, had her own income and travelled about freely.
Another of the Prophet's wives was the first Scholar of Islam

The Qur'an explains women are free to work and keep their income to spend as they please. It's up to them if they want to contribute towards the house hold expenses, as many elect to do. However it's actually the man's responsibility to work and provide for his family.

There have been Countries in the Muslim world that had female rulers of state, women drive, go to university and run their own businesses too. This is why you can't point to people and write off a religion based on their actions.

In the Indian subcontinent, culture is mixed with religion. Women are attacked for dishonouring the family name. The Qur'an forbids a Muslim from hitting the face of a combatant, and utterly condemns mutilating a body. How much more so for people who attack with acid? Incidentally acid attacks are on the increase amongst non Muslims here in the UK.

Acid attack hospital admissions have almost doubled in last 10 years

There is also no compulsion in religion.

People could point out BMW is a rubbish brand of car as people are always crashing them. Blame the driver, not the car is what any sensible person would say.

The Qur'an grabs people by the heart and manifests itself as divinely true.

Like Lauren Booth, why ARE modern British career women converting to Islam? | Daily Mail Online

People from all walks of life embrace Islam every year. Intelligent people from comfortable backgrounds recognise the truth behind the concept of Worshipping One God, a simple way to pray and connect to the divine. A simple way of life, that explains we are only here on a short journey before we return to our Creator.

When I return to God, will I be asked to explain acid attacks, women being mistreated, apostates being killed etc etc? Of course not. I can only sign petitions and email various embassies.

I follow Islam in the way it's been laid out in the Qur'an. My children have educations, wife has her own income, and despite me showing clear evidences to my children and explaining the religion to them, they are free to follow what they like when they are older. Every soul accounts for their own actions.

Only irrationality leads a person to reject something without first checking the information for themselves.

And if you have read the sources for yourself and concluded it's not for you, then again we have mutual respect for our individual ways of lives, and leave it at that.

None of your anecdotal "facts" absolve you of this Logical Fallacy: No True Scotsman.

I suggest you review that one again.

 

[leibowde84]

Hi,

I'm only pointing out to the OP, Evolution does not affect my faith in the slightest.

But, evolution means that there was no Adam and Eve, at least not in the way claimed in the Bible. And, it means that we are the descendants of common ancestors of apes. Humans didn't just pop up. We evolved from previous life.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

The Qur'an grabs people by the heart and manifests itself as divinely true.

Like Lauren Booth, why ARE modern British career women converting to Islam? | Daily Mail Online

People from all walks of life embrace Islam every year. Intelligent people from comfortable backgrounds recognise the truth behind the concept of Worshipping One God, a simple way to pray and connect to the divine. A simple way of life, that explains we are only here on a short journey before we return to our Creator.

When I return to God, will I be asked to explain acid attacks, women being mistreated, apostates being killed etc etc? Of course not. I can only sign petitions and email various embassies.

I follow Islam in the way it's been laid out in the Qur'an. My children have educations, wife has her own income, and despite me showing clear evidences to my children and explaining the religion to them, they are free to follow what they like when they are older. Every soul accounts for their own actions.

Only irrationality leads a person to reject something without first checking the information for themselves.

And if you have read the sources for yourself and concluded it's not for you, then again we have mutual respect for our individual ways of lives, and leave it at that.

None of the above explains WHY your god FAILED to prevent Atrocities from happening in Islam Ruled countries.

 

[Muslim-UK]

But, Homo Sapiens Idaltu would still be Homo Sapiens (a subgroup is still part of the main group). And, none of this even points to there ever being an adam and eve type situation.

Yes ok part of the main group, but not exactly the same with their archaic human anatomy. Did they have the same level of intelligence and understanding given to Adam and Eve pbut who lived some 10,000-35,000 years ago?

See posts 15, 20 and 244 in this thread.

 

[Muslim-UK]

With this, I agree.


Not completely sure about this one. What I can say is that anything that can be known about the universe is known through observation and the universe works through laws of physics. I don't know what you mean by 'strict' here since many of the laws are probabilistic.



Well, *parts* of the universe have consciousness (like humans, for example), but no, I wouldn't say that the universe as a whole is conscious or has a will.

See my post in 285 starting with the second paragraph, and let me know if you agree.

 

[Muslim-UK]

Maybe. Now, what?

See my post in 285 starting from the second paragraph and let me know if you agree, and if not, then why not.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Given the above, you as a unbeliever must think everything that came into being on Earth Billions of years ago did so purely by chance?

It might behoove you to take a moment to assimilate what I've been saying, which is not what you say. I make no comment on chance except to say that our universe may not have been planned. Moreover, there is no evidence of a planner, without which, I make no comment on that possibility apart from that it is possible, but it is an idea that we don't need. I repeat:

• To invoke more than what I have said would require either a direct encounter with a reality beyond the physical, or else uncovering physical phenomena that cannot be accounted for naturalistically.

That is very different from what you wrote.

Regarding chance, or accident - those are words that may but need not apply. The existence of a universe that is able to produce life and mind may be inevitable. If a multiverse exists capable of producing universes of every possible type, it may be inevitable that multiple universes with those properties were produced, and that abiogenesis is highly likely to inevitable wherever possible. It would not be a coincidence or chance that contemplative creatures like man would find themselves in a universe like that (anthropic principle).

If so, and of course it must be, then our sole purpose is like everything else on the Planet, to survive and reproduce our DNA as mentioned in post 173:

I disagree that we necessarily have a purpose for existing. That implies an intelligent designer.

"We are machines built by DNA whose purpose is to make more copies of the same DNA Flowers are for the same thing as everything else in the living kingdoms, for spreading ‘copy – me’ programmes about, written in DNA language."

"That is EXACTLY what we are for. We are machines for propagating DNA, and the propagation of DNA is a self sustaining process. It is every living objects’ sole reason for living…"

[R. Dawkins, (1991) Christmas Lectures Study Guide, p. 21]

“No species, ours included, possesses a purpose beyond the imperatives created by its genetic history.”
—Edward O. Wilson

See above. The use of the word purpose by these two men may just be linguistic style. I would be surprised if the word was meant by either to imply intent by either of these eminent scientist. If it was, I disagree with them.

“Modern science directly implies that there ... is no ultimate meaning for humans.”
—William Provine

I don't necessarily disagree, but we have to be clear about what is being said.

What does ultimate mean in this context? How is "ultimate meaning for humans" different from "meaning for humans"

And meaning doesn't come into play until there is consciousness. At that point, it refers to what various experiences signify to the conscious agent.

The word can also be used to refer to one's sense of value in his life, value in the lives of others, and a sense of valuing a hospitable place to live out those lives. I experience that as I'm sure you do as well. I don't need immortality or the existence of gods to find meaning in my life.

I don't expect that life on earth means anything away from earth except that there is life on earth and whatever that implies, such as prior abiogenesis and biological evolution. On earth, it means whatever meaning we give to it.

I've been told by many believers that to them, life has no meaning if there isn't a god or an afterlife. Those aren't usually their words. Their words are generally something such as that life can have no meaning to an atheist, often using the adjective ultimate as you did. What does that tell me about what their beliefs have done to their appreciation of life, an appreciation that I have, but that they apparently lost or never knew?

They'll tell you that their belief is adds spirituality, but it sounds pretty dead to me, which is undoubtedly how they see a life like mine lived without a god belief. We see one another as empty vessels. Yet I would be the one able to find inherent meaning in life, whereas they don't find it except in relation to an external agent that may well not exist.

And frankly, how much meaning should I give my life if it was created for the sole purpose of auditioning for a chance to praise and worship another entity for eternity? That's what I would mean to this god, but what meaning would I find in such an existence as a human applause track? I imagine that existence to be something like that Trump cabinet meeting with non-stop fawning and flattering.

Is that what is meant by having ultimate meaning?

 

[Polymath257]

See my post in 285 starting with the second paragraph, and let me know if you agree.

Nope. The laws of physics are not completely random. There are random aspects and ordered aspects. Even random aspects have order when averaged.

As for purpose, you overstate the case. What promoted survival tends to survive. That is a triviality. But at the same time, we as humans, and as part of a society of humans, can choose goals to promote humanity. And there is more to humanity than simple survival: knowledge, the arts, music, not to mention love, caring, freedom, and compassion. Whether those promote our survival in the long run remains to be seen.

But I am not simply an atheist. I am a humanist. I believe that morality is, ultimately, about human compassion, human thoughts, and human fulfillment. Even if a deity exists, that doesn't mean the goals of said deity align with fulfillment of humans. And where they differ, I support humanity over deities.

 

[leibowde84]

Yes ok part of the main group, but not exactly the same with their archaic human anatomy. Did they have the same level of intelligence and understanding given to Adam and Eve pbut who lived some 10,000-35,000 years ago?

See posts 15, 20 and 244 in this thread.

But, there is no evidence that Adam and Eve ever existed. In actuality, all available evidence points to there never being any kind of Adam and Eve. Certainly not in the way they are portrayed in the Quran or the Bible.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

See my post in 285 starting from the second paragraph and let me know if you agree, and if not, then why not.

I answered with 'Maybe'. Do I agree? Maybe. Do I disagree? Maybe.

There is insufficient evidence to be certain either way.

However, the odds are there are no gods, anywhere in the universe, who care about humans.

Proof? The existence of god-preventable evil is 100% certain proof no such gods exist. The best you can hope for, is gods who simply don't care at all.

And these may as well not exist.