1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured Near Death experiences and the scientific method.

Discussion in 'Science and Religion' started by leroy, Sep 30, 2021.

  1. ben d

    ben d Being

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2007
    Messages:
    9,655
    Ratings:
    +1,249
    Religion:
    Yes
    Fair enough.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  2. ben d

    ben d Being

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2007
    Messages:
    9,655
    Ratings:
    +1,249
    Religion:
    Yes
    I personally decide whether to accept or not, the veracity of other's claims, I do have an intuitive faculty that I've learnt to have reasonable confidence in.
     
  3. Dan From Smithville

    Dan From Smithville Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2017
    Messages:
    17,769
    Ratings:
    +12,656
    Religion:
    Christian
    My decisions are personal based on my own belief and on evidence. If a person claims that NDE's are a window to the afterlife, I expect to see evidence supporting that claim. I haven't seen any. Maybe they are evidence that beings from another world, time or dimension are trying to contact us. Maybe they are...who knows. Maybe they are a collection of perceptions based on normal physiological activity associated with brain trauma. Concluding they are something spiritual is a based on the bias of what a person believes and not on anything that is sound, objective evidence. People jump to the conclusions supported by their own biases much more than for any evidence they actually have.
     
    #703 Dan From Smithville, Nov 25, 2021 at 4:07 PM
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2021 at 4:13 PM
    • Like Like x 1
  4. ben d

    ben d Being

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2007
    Messages:
    9,655
    Ratings:
    +1,249
    Religion:
    Yes
    As I have had religious experiences for which I can not provide objective evidence, I keep an open mind as to what others may have experienced. It is true that some people are just plain 'nuts' (I don't mean that in the derogatory sense) and so I don't take their claims seriously, but I also don't argue with them. The saying that truth is stranger than fiction is imho quite correct, our minds are gateways to our perception of reality and our beliefs therefore act as filters to exclude any perceptions that are antithetical to these beliefs.
     
  5. Dan From Smithville

    Dan From Smithville Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2017
    Messages:
    17,769
    Ratings:
    +12,656
    Religion:
    Christian
    The problem with belief is that what we believe may not be true.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  6. ben d

    ben d Being

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2007
    Messages:
    9,655
    Ratings:
    +1,249
    Religion:
    Yes
    True, reality is forever on the other side of beliefs, all beliefs!
     
  7. Dan From Smithville

    Dan From Smithville Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2017
    Messages:
    17,769
    Ratings:
    +12,656
    Religion:
    Christian
    Actually, it is the opposite. If it were on the side of belief, there would be evidence for those beliefs. Lack of a test is on the side of belief.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  8. Dan From Smithville

    Dan From Smithville Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2017
    Messages:
    17,769
    Ratings:
    +12,656
    Religion:
    Christian
    I am not telling a person not to believe. Just that there are limitations to what a person can claim regarding what they believe.

    On the question of NDE's, claiming that it is evidence of an afterlife puts the burden of proof on the person making the claim. The limitations are that NDE's have not been characterized. An afterlife has not been established or characterized. It is not surprising no link between the two has been shown to exist.

    It is much the same as believing an unverified conspiracy theory and then using that belief to make political decisions. The decision could just as easily have been arrived at by tossing a coin and with as much basis for support for that way as by believing in the conspiracy.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  9. ben d

    ben d Being

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2007
    Messages:
    9,655
    Ratings:
    +1,249
    Religion:
    Yes
    Beliefs are conceptualizations of reality, they may represent a reality but they are not, and never can be, that reality. For example, say you believe in God and I ask you to describe God in detail to me, can you do that? Describe to me precisely what God is?
     
  10. ben d

    ben d Being

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2007
    Messages:
    9,655
    Ratings:
    +1,249
    Religion:
    Yes
    There is no burden of proof required for someone who claims there is an afterlife, no more than burden of proof is required for someone who says there is no afterlife. Reality is forever on the other side of the human conceptual mind and endless conceptualizing will never give you true understanding.
     
  11. Dan From Smithville

    Dan From Smithville Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2017
    Messages:
    17,769
    Ratings:
    +12,656
    Religion:
    Christian
    If a person is just stating their belief it is so. If they are making the claim and moving to or supporting action based on that claim, then there is a burden of proof.
     
  12. Dan From Smithville

    Dan From Smithville Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2017
    Messages:
    17,769
    Ratings:
    +12,656
    Religion:
    Christian
    This thread for instance has included people that make a specific claim and go further to making determinations (actions) based on those claims. The claims and determinations have been offered as some universal truth. That demands that the claims be validated.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  13. Dan From Smithville

    Dan From Smithville Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2017
    Messages:
    17,769
    Ratings:
    +12,656
    Religion:
    Christian
    In other words, subjective belief is claimed to be universal to objective reality. Without a link (establishing that the subjective is indeed an observation of reality and not merely belief) between the two, the subjective remains undemonstrated and can be ignored if one chooses.
     
  14. Dan From Smithville

    Dan From Smithville Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2017
    Messages:
    17,769
    Ratings:
    +12,656
    Religion:
    Christian
    or embraced, if one chooses that path.
     
  15. ben d

    ben d Being

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2007
    Messages:
    9,655
    Ratings:
    +1,249
    Religion:
    Yes
    Anyone can make a claim about anything, where does this 'demand' that claims be validated come from, God, the UN, the Constitution? No, take it or leave it.
     
  16. Dan From Smithville

    Dan From Smithville Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2017
    Messages:
    17,769
    Ratings:
    +12,656
    Religion:
    Christian
    I am not sure I understand what you are saying.

    There are claims that can be verified and there are those that are purely on the basis of belief. The two are not equal.
     
  17. Dan From Smithville

    Dan From Smithville Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2017
    Messages:
    17,769
    Ratings:
    +12,656
    Religion:
    Christian
    I agree that anyone can make a claim about anything. If someone tells me that drinking bleach will stop an infection, should I expect them to back that up or just start swigging bleach? I can drink the bleach or not. What if they tell me that God wants me to drink the bleach?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  18. ben d

    ben d Being

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2007
    Messages:
    9,655
    Ratings:
    +1,249
    Religion:
    Yes
    If an event is a subjective one, then making demands for objective evidence is unrealistic as it is impossible.
     
  19. ben d

    ben d Being

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2007
    Messages:
    9,655
    Ratings:
    +1,249
    Religion:
    Yes
    So someone makes the claim that there is a God, do you demand objective verification before you believe?
     
  20. TagliatelliMonster

    TagliatelliMonster Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2019
    Messages:
    11,684
    Ratings:
    +9,606
    Religion:
    Atheist
    Atheists don't even believe there is such a thing.
    When you "reject" something, you first need to acknowledge its existence.

    So the idea that atheists "reject" god or "spiritual knowledge" or the supernatural or whatever, is rather meaningless.

    Do you "reject" santa clause? Or do you simply not believe that there is such a thing?
     
    • Like Like x 1
Loading...