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Near Death experiences and the scientific method.

Lekatt

Member
Premium Member
I don't think you could find a more slanted, biased bit of witnessing if you tried. Hyperbole, mock authority, etc. Sad.

That was the surgeon who did the operation. He later went public on TV special about Pam. There was nothing fake about it. The surgical team backed up what he testified to. You don't have to believe the truth if you don't want.
 

Lekatt

Member
Premium Member
It's just a reference point for starting off.
Anesthesia awareness is an actual thing.


She was not in that state for the entirety of the surgery. You're just assuming she had these NDE memories after the blood had been drained from her head.

You are wrong, the surgeon clearly stated the events happened during the time she was clinically dead. Watch it again.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
You are wrong, the surgeon clearly stated the events happened during the time she was clinically dead. Watch it again.
How on earth could the surgeon possibly demonstrate that?

The fact of the matter is, she was not in that state for the entirety of the operation. That's a fact that you seemingly want to ignore for some reason.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
Peter Popoff
Evangelical faith healer televangelist.
Used to go to "random" people in his audience, accurately 'diagnose' them, then claim that they are healed.
James Randi spied on him, found that he was receiving radio information about the people in the audience that his partner (I think it was his wife) had gleaned from them prior to his show.
He was exposed, and banished for a time. But now, he is back, still 'healing' people. Because people want to be 'healed' by someone spewing bible verses.
In addition - several of the people that had been 'healed' were interviewed later and come to find out.... not actually healed! Imagine that.
Wow you mean that Healing claims where tested and then proven to be wrong?........... wherent you claiming that these sort of “supernatural claims” are not testable?

This is an honest question, I don’t remember who said what, but from memory I am almost sure that you made the assertion that supernatural claims can’t be tested, …….. which is obviously wrong because you already provided an example where such claims where tested.
 

Lekatt

Member
Premium Member
How on earth could the surgeon possibly demonstrate that?

The fact of the matter is, she was not in that state for the entirety of the operation. That's a fact that you seemingly want to ignore for some reason.

He was there so he knew when the events happened. It is very easy to figure out.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
They are mere anecdotes.
Whenever anyone has tried to reproduce theses things under controlled conditions, they fail.

.

I think we disagree at a fundamental level.

I (and 99.99% of the worlds population) would conclude that Ghost are real after making an unambiguous observation of a nebulous image of someone who died and saw him steeling the keys (with other witnesses observing the same thing)

And the same applies to OBEs if there where cases where people describe accurately and with detail stuff from other rooms , most people would accept it as strong evidence for OBEs.

Only crazy super skeptical fanatics would disagree ,… but if you decide to be super skeptical about supernatural claims, such that not even clear verifiable and direct observations would not convince you, you should be equally skeptical about your own personal world view today.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
That was the surgeon who did the operation. He later went public on TV special about Pam. There was nothing fake about it. The surgical team backed up what he testified to. You don't have to believe the truth if you don't want.
Again there is reason to doubt this experience.
"
Critics say that the amount of time which Reynolds was "flatlined" is generally misrepresented and suggest that her NDE occurred while under general anaesthesia when the brain was still active, hours before Reynolds underwent hypothermic cardiac arrest.[7][8][9]

Anesthesiologist Gerald Woerlee analyzed the case, and concluded that Reynolds' ability to perceive events during her surgery was the result of "anesthesia awareness".[10]

According to the psychologist Chris French:

Woerlee, an anesthesiologist with many years of clinical experience, has considered this case in detail and remains unconvinced of the need for a paranormal explanation... [He] draws attention to the fact that Reynolds could only give a report of her experience some time after she recovered from the anesthetic as she was still intubated when she regained consciousness. This would provide some opportunity for her to associate and elaborate upon the sensations she had experienced
"

By only allowing one side of the debate you are using confirmation bias because this case is no solid evidence?

There are also millions of people who are brought back to life after a short period of time who experience nothing. When people get general anesthesia they always report no dreams, the second they go under the next thing they remember is when they wake up. Their consciousness is shut off and restarts when they wake up. They have no experiences whatsoever.
 

Lekatt

Member
Premium Member
Again there is reason to doubt this experience.
"
Critics say that the amount of time which Reynolds was "flatlined" is generally misrepresented and suggest that her NDE occurred while under general anaesthesia when the brain was still active, hours before Reynolds underwent hypothermic cardiac arrest.[7][8][9]

Anesthesiologist Gerald Woerlee analyzed the case, and concluded that Reynolds' ability to perceive events during her surgery was the result of "anesthesia awareness".[10]

According to the psychologist Chris French:

Woerlee, an anesthesiologist with many years of clinical experience, has considered this case in detail and remains unconvinced of the need for a paranormal explanation... [He] draws attention to the fact that Reynolds could only give a report of her experience some time after she recovered from the anesthetic as she was still intubated when she regained consciousness. This would provide some opportunity for her to associate and elaborate upon the sensations she had experienced
"

By only allowing one side of the debate you are using confirmation bias because this case is no solid evidence?

There are also millions of people who are brought back to life after a short period of time who experience nothing. When people get general anesthesia they always report no dreams, the second they go under the next thing they remember is when they wake up. Their consciousness is shut off and restarts when they wake up. They have no experiences whatsoever.

Let me explain again. Her head was without blood, her eyes were taped shut, her ears were plugged, and she saw the events during the time she was clinically dead from a position above her body. What happened is proof of life after death and there are many more examples of life after death in NDE literature. Some will believe and some won't, but what is, is.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Let me explain again. Her head was without blood, her eyes were taped shut, her ears were plugged, and she saw the events during the time she was clinically dead from a position above her body. What happened is proof of life after death and there are many more examples of life after death in NDE literature. Some will believe and some won't, but what is, is.
What makes you think that her head was without blood, etc.? She wasn't really dead.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
It was as I said in an earlier post. She was not dead. The first thing they did was to lower her temperature. If she was at normal body temperature she would have been dead. But her brain had only been stopped.
 

Lekatt

Member
Premium Member
It was as I said in an earlier post. She was not dead. The first thing they did was to lower her temperature. If she was at normal body temperature she would have been dead. But her brain had only been stopped.

You are grasping at straws. She was dead. When your brain is stopped you are dead. You don't see or hear with your brain. If you don't want to believe OK don't. What it is, is.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
You are grasping at straws. She was dead. When your brain is stopped you are dead. You don't see or hear with your brain. If you don't want to believe OK don't. What it is, is.
No, her brain was simply not making brain waves. You are not dead until the cells are dead. And once that happens there is no going back.

By the way, do you realize that the surgery shown in the video was a dramatization?
 

Lekatt

Member
Premium Member
No, her brain was simply not making brain waves. You are not dead until the cells are dead. And once that happens there is no going back.

By the way, do you realize that the surgery shown in the video was a dramatization?

Just forget it. Too many fake alibis.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
You are grasping at straws. She was dead. When your brain is stopped you are dead. You don't see or hear with your brain.

The only ones grasping at straw, is you.

The brain control the functions of almost everything, including motor functions, memory, sensory perception plus consciousness.

Clinical dead, only say your heart stop beating and stop breathing. But it doesn’t mean your brain are dead too, not until the brain cells or neurons are dead too.

In the case that cells in the brain are alive, then the cells are merely inactive, even if the heart not beating.

Of course, cells cannot remain alive and inactive indefinitely. Too long, then the brain cells will begin dying. The heart does need to start again to deliver oxygen to those cells, because the inactive cells cannot remain living.

As long as inactive living neurons can become active again, when the heart start pumping, then it is possible for person to live out his or her days, a normal life.

Of course, because some cells may have died, some people can suffered from some degrees of “brain damage”.

For instances, there can be some losses of memory due to brain damage, or loss of the ability to some body functions, etc. in more severe case of brain damage, the person can become a vegetable, where the patient still have motor functions to the heart and lungs, but cannot regained consciousness.

A person who was only clinically dead for short time, may suffer no brain damage at all. All this depends on the numbers cells that are living and dead.

But all this indicate the person surviving and living after being clinically dead, a physical phenomena with logical and medical explanations, not a spiritual one; it is not evidence for soul, spirit, or the afterlife, as you have claimed.
 
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