Navajo Theology

[Ellen Brown]

I'm reading a long novel about Navajo culture which includes a two spirit. Their Theology seems surprisingly similar in some ways to Christian culture with the exception that there is no Messiah, and they seem to put Spirits in a role similar to what Christians would attribute to Angels.

Perhaps some of this is owing to early exposure to Catholic Priests?

In Navajo society, two spirits are called Nadeeli and seem markedly dissimilar from the LGBT "Two Spirit".

I don't experience any discomfort with their beliefs other than wondering about the Messiah.

 

[Nakosis]

I'm reading a long novel about Navajo culture which includes a two spirit. Their Theology seems surprisingly similar in some ways to Christian culture with the exception that there is no Messiah, and they seem to put Spirits in a role similar to what Christians would attribute to Angels.

Perhaps some of this is owing to early exposure to Catholic Priests?

In Navajo society, two spirits are called Nadeeli and seem markedly dissimilar from the LGBT "Two Spirit".

I don't experience any discomfort with their beliefs other than wondering about the Messiah.

Why are more Navajos joining LDS Church?

Keeping in mind the belief that Jesus did show up in America.

 

[Ellen Brown]

Why are more Navajos joining LDS Church?

Keeping in mind the belief that Jesus did show up in America.

On those issues, I think that one belief is as plausible as another, so don't debate that. The LDS are BIG in Utah and Idaho. The same may be true for Arizona and New Mexico. If you are a "normal" person you can expect to be treated very well. Their "Deep Doctrine", to me ...

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I'm reading a long novel about Navajo culture which includes a two spirit. Their Theology seems surprisingly similar in some ways to Christian culture with the exception that there is no Messiah, and they seem to put Spirits in a role similar to what Christians would attribute to Angels.

Perhaps some of this is owing to early exposure to Catholic Priests?

In Navajo society, two spirits are called Nadeeli and seem markedly dissimilar from the LGBT "Two Spirit".

I don't experience any discomfort with their beliefs other than wondering about the Messiah.

How wonderful that you are exploring this avenue. The central Navajo spiritual concept is Hozho (it would take an entire paragraph to define this word, but it means the interconnectedness and balance of the natural world, including the spiritual). There is a way that is the way of beauty. A person should walk in that way. I think the greatest beauty of the Navajo Way is that they sing their sick, especially their spiritually sick, back to health.

The thing with the spirituality of the Dinee is that it is truly a tribal religion. This means that although you may find your life inspired by its ideas, the only way to truly practice is is to become Dinee yourself. It's the same as the tribal religion Judaism -- you can study and incorporate its ideals in your life, but the only way to practice Judaism is to become a Jew. It's just how tribal religions work.

I encourage you to go farther down this path. There truly is so much beauty in the Way of Beauty. I think the easiest route to do is to read a series of novels by Tony Hillerman which have Dinee persons as the main protagonists. Indeed, the police detective Jim Chee is in training to become a Hatathli (traditional singer/healer aka shaman). Through the pages of the unfolding mysteries of Hillerman, you will be slowly introduced to Navajo culture and religion, even a splash of vocabulary.

Oh this brings back lovely memories for me. When I was younger, I actually made the journey to the four corners area with the objective in mind to learn more about the Way of Beauty. In addition to making some wonderful friends and having incredible conversations, I actually visited the four sacred mountains, though I don't think I can put into words why. Long Ago, my friend. Some things you can't learn in books.

May you walk in beauty.

 

[Ellen Brown]

How wonderful that you are exploring this avenue. The central Navajo spiritual concept is Hozho (it would take an entire paragraph to define this word, but it means the interconnectedness and balance of the natural world, including the spiritual). There is a way that is the way of beauty. A person should walk in that way. I think the greatest beauty of the Navajo Way is that they sing their sick, especially their spiritually sick, back to health.

The thing with the spirituality of the Dinee is that it is truly a tribal religion. This means that although you may find your life inspired by its ideas, the only way to truly practice is is to become Dinee yourself. It's the same as the tribal religion Judaism -- you can study and incorporate its ideals in your life, but the only way to practice Judaism is to become a Jew. It's just how tribal religions work.

I encourage you to go farther down this path. There truly is so much beauty in the Way of Beauty. I think the easiest route to do is to read a series of novels by Tony Hillerman which have Dinee persons as the main protagonists. Indeed, the police detective Jim Chee is in training to become a Hatathli (traditional singer/healer aka shaman). Through the pages of the unfolding mysteries of Hillerman, you will be slowly introduced to Navajo culture and religion, even a splash of vocabulary.

Oh this brings back lovely memories for me. When I was younger, I actually made the journey to the four corners area with the objective in mind to learn more about the Way of Beauty. In addition to making some wonderful friends and having incredible conversations, I actually visited the four sacred mountains, though I don't think I can put into words why. Long Ago, my friend. Some things you can't learn in books.

May you walk in beauty.

Thank you. In the story are Nadeeli and what is said about them makes more sense than anything I have seen. I think the LGBT and the Mental Health community tried to Hijack all that, lumping Nadeeli in their group as transgender, and that is especially incorrect in my estimation. The protagonist in the story is Nadeeli, and married to an ER Nurse. He/she switches back and forth easily and that is how I think it was intended to be.

They call the people Dine, and the use the same word in Utah. I know a Nez Perce man but have not had the chance to speak to him about all this. I spoke to his wife tonight and she said that with the Nez Perce the Nadeeli are seen as totally normal, and are often seen as healers and comforters.

I've been through that area but it was in 68 and 69 so I do not remember much.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Thank you. In the story are Nadeeli and what is said about them makes more sense than anything I have seen. I think the LGBT and the Mental Health community tried to Hijack all that, lumping Nadeeli in their group as transgender, and that is especially incorrect in my estimation. The protagonist in the story is Nadeeli, and married to an ER Nurse. He/she switches back and forth easily and that is how I think it was intended to be.

They call the people Dine, and the use the same word in Utah. I know a Nez Perce man but have not had the chance to speak to him about all this. I spoke to his wife tonight and she said that with the Nez Perce the Nadeeli are seen as totally normal, and are often seen as healers and comforters.

I've been through that area but it was in 68 and 69 so I do not remember much.

I'm getting a little confused. I think Nadeeli is a personal name???? The word for a Two Spirit, or feminine male, is Nadleehi. There is also a word for the masculine female: dilbaa. The Dinee (Navajo) believe there are four genders. Female-female, male-male, female-male, and male-female. All four are considered normal.

You might enjoy watching a documentary called Two Spirits. It's about the real life story of a Nadleehi named Fred Martinez and how he was murdered. I don't think you'll be able to find it for free though. You can pay for it on ITunes and YouTube.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I think the LGBT and the Mental Health community tried to Hijack all that, lumping Nadeeli in their group as transgender, and that is especially incorrect in my estimation.

I'd be interested in hearing how you think a Nadleehi differs from a transgender.

The primary difference from what I can discern is that in Navajo culture, an effeminate male is its own gender. It is not a woman trapped inside a male body, who needs to cast off the outer male garment and embrace her true female nature. Rather, the effeminate male IS the true nature -- neither male nor female, but something unique. That's actually closer to my way of seeing it. I honestly believe that the reason they are so unhappy is that they cannot accept themselves for who they actually are -- they are trying in vain to become something they can never be. The Nadleehi, otoh, are the opposite, knowing exactly who they are and embracing it, not trying to become anything different.

 

[Ellen Brown]

I'm getting a little confused. I think Nadeeli is a personal name???? The word for a Two Spirit, or feminine male, is Nadleehi. There is also a word for the masculine female: dilbaa. The Dinee (Navajo) believe there are four genders. Female-female, male-male, female-male, and male-female. All four are considered normal.

You might enjoy watching a documentary called Two Spirits. It's about the real life story of a Nadleehi named Fred Martinez and how he was murdered. I don't think you'll be able to find it for free though. You can pay for it on ITunes and YouTube.

What I have read so far indicates that Two Spirits often encounter hardship. The use of terms I am just getting from this story. I do not know if the author is right or not. It is interesting that in recent news out of Utah, they use the word Dine. I don't know if the press has it right or not?

As I said, the LGBT "Professional" community saddled me with transgender, and not knowing any better, I went along with it. Though it never felt right. In my opinion, they culturally appropriated the term Two Spirit and it was never correct. They caused lots of pain and there is a large movement of those who are "Detransitioning". Not calling anyone evil, but they were wrong, so wrong.

 

[Ellen Brown]

I'd be interested in hearing how you think a Nadleehi differs from a transgender.

The primary difference from what I can discern is that in Navajo culture, an effeminate male is its own gender. It is not a woman trapped inside a male body, who needs to cast off the outer male garment and embrace her true female nature. Rather, the effeminate male IS the true nature -- neither male nor female, but something unique. That's actually closer to my way of seeing it. I honestly believe that the reason they are so unhappy is that they cannot accept themselves for who they actually are -- they are trying in vain to become something they can never be. The Nadleehi, otoh, are the opposite, knowing exactly who they are and embracing it, not trying to become anything different.

I agree with your assessment, and part of the problem is that non-Native American culture is so binary and that is owing to a mean spirited interpretation of the Bible, I think. Remembering back a long, long time, I was always an effeminate Male. My father was raised on the Cherokee Reservation in Oklahoma outside of Shawnee, and was said to be full blooded. I did not meet him until I was 27, so didn't learn much from him. It has all been a very, painful at times, learning process...

 

[IndigoChild5559]

What I have read so far indicates that Two Spirits often encounter hardship. The use of terms I am just getting from this story. I do not know if the author is right or not. It is interesting that in recent news out of Utah, they use the word Dine. I don't know if the press has it right or not?

As I said, the LGBT "Professional" community saddled me with transgender, and not knowing any better, I went along with it. Though it never felt right. In my opinion, they culturally appropriated the term Two Spirit and it was never correct. They caused lots of pain and there is a large movement of those who are "Detransitioning". Not calling anyone evil, but they were wrong, so wrong.

Dine' or Dinee or Dineh is the Navajo word meaning "People." That's simply what they call themselves, "The People."

You are right. People can be mistaken, badly mistaken, even hurtfully mistaken, without being evil. I think this is true about the transgender movement. It's not that I don't think there are legitimately those who are a mix, who have bodies of one sex, and personality makeups of the other. And I have no problem with such people. It takes all kinds to make the world go round. But I think we all need to accept ourselves as who we are, and not go frantically trying to be what we will never be. A transgender "woman" will never be a cis woman, no matter how hard she/he tries. She, or he, or however you wish to address them, is essentially a third option, a man with a strong inner woman. Why not embrace that? I just don't get it. I suppose I just think more like a Navajo than either side in our present culture wars. I just don't understand the need to push people into boxes. Why can't people be individuals.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I agree with your assessment, and part of the problem is that non-Native American culture is so binary and that is owing to a mean spirited interpretation of the Bible, I think. Remembering back a long, long time, I was always an effeminate Male. My father was raised on the Cherokee Reservation in Oklahoma outside of Shawnee, and was said to be full blooded. I did not meet him until I was 27, so didn't learn much from him. It has all been a very, painful at times, learning process...

I think you hit it on the NOSE!!!!! The problem is that our present culture, including the LGBT movement, sees gender in binary terms. Generally speaking that's true. But there are just exceptions. And you have to allow for people who don't fit into the boxes, you don't just shove them in to one or the other, which is what the transgender movement does as well.

 

[Ellen Brown]

Dine' or Dinee or Dineh is the Navajo word meaning "People." That's simply what they call themselves, "The People."

You are right. People can be mistaken, badly mistaken, even hurtfully mistaken, without being evil. I think this is true about the transgender movement. It's not that I don't think there are legitimately those who are a mix, who have bodies of one sex, and personality makeups of the other. And I have no problem with such people. It takes all kinds to make the world go round. But I think we all need to accept ourselves as who we are, and not go frantically trying to be what we will never be. A transgender "woman" will never be a cis woman, no matter how hard she/he tries. She, or he, or however you wish to address them, is essentially a third option, a man with a strong inner woman. Why not embrace that? I just don't get it. I suppose I just think more like a Navajo than either side in our present culture wars. I just don't understand the need to push people into boxes. Why can't people be individuals.

Haven't we talked about how this happened to me? The nervous breakdown due to stress and PTSD (You'd have to have been there)? The heavy doses of experimental Psych Meds? The "guiding" by a Lesbian Phd. Counselor? And a half dozen other factors that caused me to belief I was TG?

15 years later, after having lived the life, it is clear to me that the Native American Two Spirit path is more valid. I'll answer to God for my stupidity one day ... the devastation it caused in the life of my family and my own.

The transgender movement is rooted in error or at least it was for me.

 

[Ellen Brown]

I think you hit it on the NOSE!!!!! The problem is that our present culture, including the LGBT movement, sees gender in binary terms. Generally speaking that's true. But there are just exceptions. And you have to allow for people who don't fit into the boxes, you don't just shove them in to one or the other, which is what the transgender movement does as well.

You are right. I get so discouraged dealing with it all the time. I could easily suicide, I live on the 4th floor, but there are people who say they care for me, so I don't get to hurt them to stop my own pain. When the weather improves, perhaps I will try to connect with "Dine" in and around Portland. I have no car, and doubt that I will buy another one.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Haven't we talked about how this happened to me? The nervous breakdown due to stress and PTSD (You'd have to have been there)? The heavy doses of experimental Psych Meds? The "guiding" by a Lesbian Phd. Counselor? And a half dozen other factors that caused me to belief I was TG?

15 years later, after having lived the life, it is clear to me that the Native American Two Spirit path is more valid. I'll answer to God for my stupidity one day ... the devastation it caused in the life of my family and my own.

The transgender movement is rooted in error or at least it was for me.

Bless you.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

You are right. I get so discouraged dealing with it all the time. I could easily suicide, I live on the 4th floor, but there are people who say they care for me, so I don't get to hurt them to stop my own pain. When the weather improves, perhaps I will try to connect with "Dine" in and around Portland. I have no car, and doubt that I will buy another one.

Don't get discouraged. There is a lot you can learn by reading books, or going to NDN websites. But unless you are in the four corners area, the odds are very low you will ever run into a Navajo. Do the best you can, and know in your heart that this will be enough. I suspect a traditional Navajo would be more interested in Hozho, whether you have found balance and harmony in your life, than that you know the details of their religion.

"Hozho is every drop of rain,
every eyelash,
every leaf on every tree,
every feather on the bluebird’s wing.
Hozho is undeniable beauty.
Hozho is in every breath that we give to the trees.
And in every breath they give to us in return.
Hozho is reciprocity.
My grandmother knows the meaning of hozho well.
For she speaks a language that grew out of the desert floor
like red sandstone monoliths that rise like arms out of the earth
praising creation for all its brilliance."
Lyla June Johnston – Spoken word

May you walk in beauty and harmony.

 

[Ellen Brown]

Don't get discouraged. There is a lot you can learn by reading books, or going to NDN websites. But unless you are in the four corners area, the odds are very low you will ever run into a Navajo. Do the best you can, and know in your heart that this will be enough. I suspect a traditional Navajo would be more interested in Hozho, whether you have found balance and harmony in your life, than that you know the details of their religion.

"Hozho is every drop of rain,
every eyelash,
every leaf on every tree,
every feather on the bluebird’s wing.
Hozho is undeniable beauty.
Hozho is in every breath that we give to the trees.
And in every breath they give to us in return.
Hozho is reciprocity.
My grandmother knows the meaning of hozho well.
For she speaks a language that grew out of the desert floor
like red sandstone monoliths that rise like arms out of the earth
praising creation for all its brilliance."
Lyla June Johnston – Spoken word

May you walk in beauty and harmony.

I've had time to think more about all this. While I was deeply indoctrinated to Christianity, then Islam, and finally Mormonism, it seems that they all touted their 'truth' as the sole truth, exclusive of all else. The Creator is beyond all that. Lately I think a lot about Micah 6:8, and wonder if that is not core, the true path, to what pleases the Creator?

The Navajo belief draws my focus for now, though I still do think much about the things that were indoctrinated into me. I'll likely keep my own council on monotheism, since apparently most of the Native American peoples believe in Wakan Tanka, but the article says they do not see him as the 'One God'.

It is interesting, and a blessing to me that I have seen no sign of rejection for one like me in Navajo belief. The believers in Christianity, Islam, and Mormonism all seem to hug me with love, while they stab me in the back with a poison dagger. The false Atonement of the Mormons hurt me the worst of it all, and it is difficult to forgive, though I try.

It seems clear to me that I hold grudges and the one who loves me will not let that go, so it is obvious that repentance and forgiveness is the path. Perhaps it is permissible to 'chew' on things for a while like a Cow chews the cud, but eventually letting go is the only path.

Hagoonee.

Haseya.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

The Navajo belief draws my focus for now, though I still do think much about the things that were indoctrinated into me. I'll likely keep my own council on monotheism, since apparently most of the Native American peoples believe in Wakan Tanka, but the article says they do not see him as the 'One God'.
Haseya.

The religion of the Lakota is awesome! And yes, it's central concepts such as that of a creator God have been adopted by most Native Americans. They have been accepted as monotheists by, for example, the Catholic Church, who have translated "God" in the Bible in Lakota to "Wakan Tanka" or Great Spirit. Whole books have been written on Lakota Spirituality that are popular among non-NDN's.

It is still a little different because they do believe that all of nature is infused with some sort of spiritual essence, sometimes referred to as mana. This is why they sometimes refer to the spirit of the river or the mountain. It goes without saying you cannot abuse such a sacred world. They will also have individual connections to animal spirits known as totem animals, who offer strength and sometimes guidance through dreams. Most religions believe in the power of dreams. You probably already know all this, but I say it for the sake of the forum.

 

[Ellen Brown]

The religion of the Lakota is awesome! And yes, it's central concepts such as that of a creator God have been adopted by most Native Americans. They have been accepted as monotheists by, for example, the Catholic Church, who have translated "God" in the Bible in Lakota to "Wakan Tanka" or Great Spirit. Whole books have been written on Lakota Spirituality that are popular among non-NDN's.

It is still a little different because they do believe that all of nature is infused with some sort of spiritual essence, sometimes referred to as mana. This is why they sometimes refer to the spirit of the river or the mountain. It goes without saying you cannot abuse such a sacred world. They will also have individual connections to animal spirits known as totem animals, who offer strength and sometimes guidance through dreams. Most religions believe in the power of dreams. You probably already know all this, but I say it for the sake of the forum.

I am learning.