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Nationalism?

beenherebeforeagain

Rogue Animist
Premium Member
Thanks for the reply, @beenherebeforeagain

Rooting for sports teams are an interesting thing to consider. I don't know if it is any different elsewhere, but here in Brazil people often take a side in traditional team rivalries for what is usually no reason at all.

Sport teams hardly have any causes or ideologies beyond the thrill of earning a victory. But that is apparently plenty enough. The players are not even all that tied to specific teams or places, but that hardly matters. It is in fact easier to meet someone who switched political allegiance than one who decides to change sports allegiances.

Maybe it is just me, but I sure find that a bit weird. The point seems to be to feel the thrill, not to have a rational reason sustaining it.

But there is a valuable resource to be had that way. People bond and create emotional connections over such allegiances, and that has lots of pratical use, if not necessarily value.


On a separate note, I want to point out that it is proper and good to feel pride of one's land brothers. It is even more proper to feel grateful to the circunstances of one's birth and raising, of course.

But patriotic pride is IMO something else entlrely, and very difficult to make sense of.
very good post. Yeah, sports allegiance is weird, but I think it may be analogous to national pride. As a patriot, I take pride in what I see as the good things about my nation, and what my fellows have done in that vein, and the potential for the future. I also acknowledge the things that my country and fellow citizens have done that were wrong--we need to learn from that. You might say I'm a fan of my country (I'm also a fan of several other nations, and cultures, but that may or may not be related to patriotism...) and want to celebrate it and make it better, and defend it if attacked, and so on, but by no means do I support our interference in other nations, our foisting of our culture on all others.

Were I a nationalist, on the other hand, I might be more like those who are not just fans of a team, but the superfans...unquestioning support and dedication, strong emotions against those not aligned with "my" team, wanting and expecting everyone to support my team, and so on...

I think you're right, a lot of this goes to emotion, which is by definition not rational, and certainly it's engrained in our societies and we tend to get socialized into it...but at the same time, there are those who will go against family and community and support something else, despite being in the minority...when I was young, I was for a time a communist (anarcho-syndicalist), and still in some ways hold those beliefs, which was/is very different than my family and my community. I'm now much more in favor of individual-level freedom in business, etc., and so tend to fall much more libertarian in my social and economic views than most in my community--I'm supporting a different team, as it were...

I apologize for bringing the sports metaphor into this discussion...:oops::rolleyes:
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
But that's the thing. We all may be human beings, but it's easy for us Americans to reduce ourselves to just our species, given that the majority of us belong to diasporic populations, removed from our various Homelands either via immigrating ancestors, slave trades, or displacements. Plus we're the heirs of a culture already long removed from it's Homeland.
I really don't see that going on here. Many are "proud to be an American," with little regard to the fact there is a difference between places like New York and Seattle, Little Rock and Wichita, and "small town America" like Cicero or Greentown (two small towns in Indiana). Northern states are different than Southern states, and Washington DC seemed to be pretty different itself from the one time I visited, and I've heard California is an entirely different world. Of course there are also disasporic population, recent immigrant populations, and other such grounds, but from where I stand there are many "proud Americans" who don't really care for their heritage any deeper than America, and being more specific about what part of America they come from, such as the South, small town, or the lands their family has lived on for several generations.
It may just be that I have never fit in where I live enough to take up the values of small town America to see it as anything important. Just a bunch of prayers before public meetings, offense taken if you don't believe in God (more specifically the Christian god), and deep fried pretty-much-just-about-anything (even Pepsi) during county fairs.
 

MD

qualiaphile
Culture and society aren't artificial, and they are something we we are a part of, and are influenced by. If someone said "Brazilians are an unintelligent and unhygienic people." would you take offense? If so, then these "artificial concepts" are a part of your identity.

Loll Rio de janeiro
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
I really don't see that going on here. Many are "proud to be an American," with little regard to the fact there is a difference between places like New York and Seattle, Little Rock and Wichita, and "small town America" like Cicero or Greentown (two small towns in Indiana). Northern states are different than Southern states, and Washington DC seemed to be pretty different itself from the one time I visited, and I've heard California is an entirely different world.

I'm from California. I've been to Oregon, Washington State, and New York City. While the former two are somewhat familiar (West Coast), the latter somehow felt more foreign to me than Shizuoka in Japan did (probably by virtue of me being an otaku).

Of course there are also disasporic population, recent immigrant populations, and other such grounds, but from where I stand there are many "proud Americans" who don't really care for their heritage any deeper than America, and being more specific about what part of America they come from, such as the South, small town, or the lands their family has lived on for several generations.
It may just be that I have never fit in where I live enough to take up the values of small town America to see it as anything important. Just a bunch of prayers before public meetings, offense taken if you don't believe in God (more specifically the Christian god), and deep fried pretty-much-just-about-anything (even Pepsi) during county fairs.

I think a lot of it does depend on where you're from. In hindsight, it's not just Americans who do the whole "one-world, one people, no separate nations" thing. Heck, it was a Brit who wrote Imagine, and I remember the Celtic Women sang the song One World.

I'm not from Small Town America. I'm from a suburb, and a pretty small one at that, not too far from San Francisco. The hyper-liberal reputation is well-deserved. Problem is that this also comes with this global universalist sentiment, which I was raised with. I was exposed to that all the time, and once believed in very strongly.

But here's the thing: as I've come to listen to the voices of those people who aren't part of that zeitgeist (i.e., people who have been historically subjugated by these foreign invaders who now deny that their culture has no value because we're all nothing more than homo sapiens), that sense of cultural identity isn't just important to them: it's quite literally everything. It's not just a sense of national identity, it's Identity, with language, culture, shared experience, and community all working together. To implement the one-world (by which I mean the type that seeks to erase all sense of distinct cultural identity, not the more loose federation-type that you talked about), would be to stip them all of that, everything that they know and cherish.

My native [language], now I must forgo,
And now my tongue's use is to me no more
Than an unstringed viol or a harp.
Within my mouth you have enjail'd my tongue.
I am too old to fawn upon a nurse,
Too far in years to be a pupil now.
What is thy sentence then but speechless death,
Which robs my tongue from breathing native breath?

-Richard II​

Nationalism is really easy to corrupt and misuse, and has been historically at the cost of millions of lives. I absolutely am not a nationalist, except maybe in my support for the independence of one of my ancestral lands but which I've never been to, and which I'm not a citizen of, and who's indigenous language I mourn the slow, ongoing death of. But global universalism can also be easily corrupted and misused, and arguably, it has been.

Consider this frightening concept: nationalism being combined with global universalism. Separate, I think they both can have pros and cons depending on the situation, but combined into a whole, it'd be nothing less than a nightmare scenario.
 
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ShivaFan

Satyameva Jayate
Premium Member
Nationalism is a word for today that gives a moniker to the rise of the voice of the people and justifiable anger. There is no "definitive" definition, anymore than "Hindu" or "Liberalism" (what it means today is nothing of what it was before) ....

... but it doesn't matter, just as I accept the term "Hindu", so I accept the term "Nationalism" as it is projected by the people as there needs to be some convenient "name" so, since the people are choosing that, so be it, let's ride.

Today we see Republican establishment cronies totally in the pockets of the globalist elites and their open borders cheap labor agenda, who go around and call themselves "conservatives". They say you are not "conservative" unless you agree to let millions of illiterate hordes from South of the border horde in as the "chosen migrants" to the exclusion of all others, where the American people no longer have a choice who will come - why not Russians? Hungarians? ACTUAL Christian refugees from the ME instead of muslim Somalis and Bangladeshi Islamists and Pakistanis now running over the Mexican border along with illiterate drug runners? - where is the voice of the people?

Fine - now we see Natiinalists looking at "conservative" with a jaundice eye... Reagan wouldn't ever be such a "conservative" they tout.

I don't care what it is called, be it Hinduism as the "catch all" or Nationalism as the voice of today's anti-establishment revolution.

BREXIT, this was a vote of no confidence in the huge remote and elitist bureaucracy that has failed the middle class of Europe for 20 plus years as a "partnership" of trade turned into a bureaucratic despostic unelected Austro-Hungarian Empire called the EU which is a failure and tried to leave the people of Europe no longer in control of their destiny.

They will now try to turn Putin and Russia into the boogie man and all the while the elites invade Europe with hordes of Somalis and other such muslim men of military age who will never assimilate and attack Europeans. The people of Europe have the right to decide and choose who will enter Europe, not globalist elites in far removed agencies in Brussels.

These extremist elites are now in full attack mode to destroy democracy.

Ok. Let us see who is going to get destroyed. Let us see who is going to have their taxes raised. Let us see who will be held accountable for crimes. Let us see who will pay the piper.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
Yeah, very likely that American cultural diversity will be the undoing of America. Assimilation is the only path to peace.
Assimilation into what? There's nothing to assimilate into. America has always been a multicultural and multiethnic/racial country.
 
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Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
And again, it depends on reducing our identities to merely the species level, which is easy for us diasporia to do, who can never truly know what it means to live for countless generations in the same rough geographic region, among mostly the same people, all deeply invested in everyone else's well-being.
That sounds like romanticism.
 

Politesse

Amor Vincit Omnia
This is mostly to satisfy a curiosity of mine, but what do folks around here think about nationalism or patriotism? I've seen some views about this that rather perplex me, and I'd like to give them a space to express themselves. Also, putting this in a debate area because I don't mind if you all start going at it with each other. :D I don't have strong feelings about the idea one way or another - being an American simply isn't part of how I think of my identity, but nor would I balk at someone who considers themselves a patriot. What about you?
I think patriotism is a unique form of brain cancer, that is allowed to spread because a populace enraged at outsiders is a populace ill-armed to question the means by which their own country is governed. I do love my country in the sense that I love the land where I grew up (the actual land, not the idea of it as a island of white capitalist "freedom") and the people I know. Hating someone else's land and people seems so alien to me as to seem like a contradiction in terms. How can I really claim to love the people and land I do without also acknowledging the love that others have for their land and kin? These loves come from the same place, if they are true. If I have an anthem, it's this one:

 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Not sure how some see patriotism equating to the hatred of anything or anybody. :shrug: A bit like assuming someone who has a thing for chocolate ice cream must hate vanilla.
Feel free to explain how it is something else.

The way I see it, claiming privilege for something or someone by virtue of its nationality is not automatically hateful. But it is rarely necessary outside of hate-fueled contexts.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
Pardon, let's back up a second. When did claiming privilege become intrinsic to patriotism and/or nationalism? I don't understand.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Pardon, let's back up a second. When did claiming privilege become intrinsic to patriotism and/or nationalism? I don't understand.
Isn't that the very idea? That one's place or community of birth is entitled to some form of privilege that other are not entitled to?
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
Isn't that the very idea? That one's place or community of birth is entitled to some form of privilege that other are not entitled to?

I suppose I don't tend to look at it that way, no. I've just seen it as a small component of identity, and an inevitable one at that given all organisms are surrounded by some sort of ecosystem (and for humans, that includes a "cultural" ecosystem or "national" identity).
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
I'm not really as patriotic as the picture below but I sometimes get the idea that other countries feel we all think this way.
team-america-jpg.jpg

The over zealous patriotism in the spoof really makes me laugh.

GOD BLESS MERICA!!!! LOL;)
 

Politesse

Amor Vincit Omnia
Not sure how some see patriotism equating to the hatred of anything or anybody. :shrug: A bit like assuming someone who has a thing for chocolate ice cream must hate vanilla.
Never met someone who called themselves a patriot but did not believe in the exceptionalism of their nation.
 

beenherebeforeagain

Rogue Animist
Premium Member
Isn't that the very idea? That one's place or community of birth is entitled to some form of privilege that other are not entitled to?
No, that's not what it calls for to me, as I brought up earlier. Pride in X (family, community, state, nation, profession, personal accomplishment, talent, etc.) does not place any assumptions of privilege, nor does it deny others pride in their own X.

That people sometimes DO go beyond this is I think a certainty, but it is not inherent.
 

Sees

Dragonslayer
Feel free to explain how it is something else.

The way I see it, claiming privilege for something or someone by virtue of its nationality is not automatically hateful. But it is rarely necessary outside of hate-fueled contexts.

I don't see having a sense of pride, attachment, belonging with your nationality, sex, ethnicity, religion, etc. necessitating negativity towards others or only finding meaning by way of it. It is a very foreign way of thinking to me.
 
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