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Mythism : Did the prophets actually exist?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Lorgar-Aurelian, Apr 5, 2017.

  1. Lorgar-Aurelian

    Lorgar-Aurelian Active Member

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    It's not too difficult to find someone who will tell you that say Zeus never existed. It is however much less common to find people who will tell you that Jesus never existed. You may even get some people who outright deny that Jesus was God or that Christianity has any merit but still affirms Jesus was a real person.

    My question is do you think that the prophets of the bible and the quran actually existed? Why or why not?

    I personally have been under the impression Jesus never existed for years now. I've always found the lack of evidence more than enough reason to discard the idea. How did it get there then? Well I can't be 100% certain but I've seen quite a few theories that provide explanation. I am in all honesty not too worried about supplying an origin for Jesus as I don't know and honestly don't care all that much.

    In a similar fashion I would discard the Jewish prophets because the Exodus more than likely never happened. Adam more than likely never existed nor did Noah or various other prophets. In fact if you look at Noah's story it's pretty obviously ripped off from other flood myths.

    Did Muhammad exist? This is debatable , there is not a tremendous amount of non Islamic references to Muhammad before a certain point in time well past when he was supposed to be alive. One of the only pieces of evidence for Muhammad's existence are letters he supposedly dictated to someone else to send to local rulers. Of course it's possible that like the shroud of turin that investigation would prove it to be a fake but we can't seem to access these letters to analyze them.

    Of course I could be wrong, it's possible that Jesus did exist I just don't see any legitimate reason to believe he did.
     
  2. Augustus

    Augustus the Unreasonable

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    The letters are not real and the whole story around them is fantastical. There is overwhelming evidence for his existence though, even if you completely ignore the Islamic tradition due to numerous references in near contemporary non-Muslim sources.

    A small selection:

    People were saying “the candidatus has been killed,” and we Jews were overjoyed. And they were saying that the prophet had appeared, coming with the Saracens, and that he was pro-claiming the advent of the anointed one, the Christ who was to come. I, having arrived at Sykamina, stopped by a certain old man well-versed in the scriptures, and I said to him: “What can you tell me about the prophet who has appeared with the Saracens?” He replied, groaning deeply: “He is false, for the prophets do not come armed with a sword... But you go, master Abraham, and find out about the prophet who has appeared.” So I, Abraham, inquired and heard from those who had met him that there was no truth to be found in the socalled prophet, only the shedding of men’s blood. He says also that he has the keys of paradise, which is incredible.10 (Doctrina Jacobi c.634)

    In January {the people of} Ḥimṣ took the word for their lives2 and many villages were ravaged by the killing of {the Arabs of} Muḥammad (Mūḥmd) and many people were slain and {taken} prisoner from Galilee as far as Beth… On the tw{enty-six}th of May the Saq{īlā}rā went {…} from the vicinity of Ḥimṣ and the Romans chased them {…}.3 (Fragment - circa 636)

    In the year 945, indiction 7, on Friday 4 February (634) at the ninth hour, there was a battle between the Romans and the Arabs of Muḥammad (ṭayyāyē d-Mḥmṭ) in Palestine twelve miles east of Gaza. The Romans fled, leaving behind the patrician bryrdn,12 whom the Arabs killed. Some 4000 poor villagers of Palestine were killed there, Christians, Jews and Samaritans. The Arabs ravaged the whole region.13 (Thomas the Presbyter c.640)


    Muḥammad preached, saying: “With an oath God promised that land to Abraham and his posterity after him forever.… Now you, you are the sons of Abraham, and God will realise in you the promise made to Abraham and his posterity. Only love the God of Abraham, and go and take possession of your country which God gave to your father Abraham, and none will be able to resist you in battle, for God is with you.”
    (Sebeos c660)

    That the rapid spread of Christianity would be even more remarkable had he not existed?
     
  3. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    And you - a person of such keen insight and analytical skill that you haven't even taken the time to familiarize yourself with the many, many RF posts on the topic - are to be trusted as the judge of "legitimate reason." :D
     
  4. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    all temporal things become myths.

    myths are about divine entities and divine literally means soothsayer; which is what a prophet is, or seer. mythic means legendary.
     
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  5. Lorgar-Aurelian

    Lorgar-Aurelian Active Member

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    See you make It sound like I think i'm some sort of genius. I really don't and on top of that yes because when I think of hard core research I think RF. I am my own judge so yes I will judge what I think is legitimate reason and what isn't. You won't list a reason though will you? No you will just go back to asserting that you know more than me then won't even respond.
     
  6. fi11222

    fi11222 Member

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    As I said in another thread, I believe that most prophets are composite characters i.e. that their official "biographies" contain a certain amount of genuine annecdotes belonging to the lives of actual people (often several) bound together by a fictional narrative. In the case of Jesus, there were many popular Jewish holy men in Judea and the surrounding region in the first century AD. Some of them might have actually said "blessed are the meek" or "turn the other cheek". Some were undoubtedly faith healers and therefore some of the miracle stories may have a kernel of truth. Some might have been called "Yeshua" or "Joshua" or some other variant of this name. When the canonical gospels were composed, after the first Jewish-Roman wars, these varied elements were integrated into a narrative whose main point was that "my kingdom is not of this world" i.e. that the Messiah had not in fact come to revive the earthly Jerusalem, as the recent defeat, accompanied by the Temple's destruction, seemed to prove.

    The same kind of process certainly applies to Muhammad. In the case of Moses, there has been a number of works (including one by Sigmund Freud) that have tried to established a link between his story, as told by the Bible, and the Memory of the quasi-monotheistic Egyptian religious reform attempted by Akhenaton at about the same time Moses is supposed to have lived. One key piece of evidence in these reconstructions is the fact that the name "Moses" is obviously an Egyptian word (meaning 'son of') and not an Hebrew one. A very good summary of all the hypotheses about Moses has been written by well-know Egyptologist Jan Assman. I highly recomend it.
     
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  7. George-ananda

    George-ananda Advaita Vedanta and Spiritualist and Pantheist
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    I believe Jesus and certainly even more so Mohammed were real flesh and blood humans. Too much history just does not make sense without them. Just for example, I can not imagine the eyewitness Christians choosing death over denial based on a myth. Mohammed's historical record and influence seems undeniable.
     
  8. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    Well, that explains much.
     
  9. Lorgar-Aurelian

    Lorgar-Aurelian Active Member

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    That was sarcasm.
     
  10. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    Actually, while I perhaps too often engage in sarcasm, the above was absolutely serious. I greatly value discernment and consider your statement to be a pathetic admission, made all the more pathetic by that fact that you don't recognize it as such.
     
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