nPeace
Veteran Member
Why do you believe this? Is there any credible evidence that your belief is right?
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Mystery Solved
- Thread starter nPeace
- Start date
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
Apostle means “sent” or “messenger”. According to the early church, you had to have seen Jesus in order to be an apostle. Paul never was in the company of Jesus. Was he ever, please?
Regards
Since the Creator can never come into direct contact with mortal beings, (he told Moses that "no man may see me and yet live") he used angelic representatives to speak on his behalf. To confront the Creator face to face, no mortal would survive the experience.
The scripture you cited, when read in context, does not mention what Moses "saw", but rather what he "heard". If you recall, God spoke to Moses in the tabernacle in the special compartment where the Ark of the Covenant was kept. The Shekinah Light appeared there indicating Jehovah's presence by his spirit.
Since the pre-human Jesus is called "the Word" (Logos) which means a 'spokesman'....(one who speaks for the one whom he represents) Jesus is a good example of a representative speaking for God. What he taught was from his Father, not from himself. (John 7:16)
Another good example is the three "men" who visited Abraham at Mamre. These were angels who materialized to deliver a message to Abraham about the birth of Isaac, the one through whom the promised seed would come. Two of them went on to deal with the immoral cities of Sodom and Gomorrah. (Genesis 18)
The one speaking for God, spoke as if Jehovah himself was speaking, but the Creator never has to reduce himself down to the level of material creatures to instruct them. He has always had others to represent him, both human and angelic.
Jesus represented his Father like no other. Acting as the Logos, God is instructing us even today through his teachings.
If I may provide an answer here paarsurrey....
Paul was the foremost persecutor of Christians due to his zeal for God's worship and love for his people. He saw Christianity as an apostasy from Judaism and fought it with everything in him. He was an educated Pharisee, probably from a wealthy family in Jewish circles....not a humble, uneducated fisherman like the most prominent apostles were.
On the way to persecuting more Christians, he was stopped on the road by a blinding light and a voice that asked him "Saul...why are you persecuting me?" To which the now blinded Saul said..."who are you Lord?" Jesus then identified himself and told Saul to go to a man named Ananias who would restore his sight. He said that this man was a "chosen vessel" who would be used in furthering the "good news" (gospel)
Now, considering that Saul, (who was also named Paul perhaps because of his Roman citizenship. It was not unusual for men to have two names back then,) was not instructed in the teachings of Jesus Christ by the other apostles, but by Jesus himself in holy spirit. This tells us that he was indeed an apostle in every sense of the word. Sent forth as "an apostle to the nations".
Paul was not like the other apostles in many ways, but he was accepted by them and loved by them.
His credentials were used in taking to gospel to "the nations" or Gentiles. He was an educated man and he had Roman citizenship, both of which were used to persuade the educated Gentiles (particularly the Greek philosophers) in the teachings of Jesus Christ. His address to the "Men of Athens" confirms this. (Acts 17:22-34)
His trials and tribulations as a Christian would have been in sharp contrast to his life as a privileged Pharisee, so can you tell me what possible motive Paul would have for changing his religion, and bringing all that reproach and persecution on himself, if he did not believe with all his heart that it was the truth?
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
You are free to believe that.....but what possible motive could he have to invite such hardship on himself?
What did he have to gain by faking a vision?
So I assume "the God" who was walking around Eden in Genesis 3 is also simply "the Word", the Son as well? So the existence of the Son is basically a necessity in order for the God to interact with His physical creation? Is it at the moment that God speaks for the first time (Let there be light), the Word is created, and this Word is what made the physical creation possible?
Since the Word was always Jehovah's spokesman to man, there is no reason to dismiss his presence in any communication with his human servants. He was appointed as "mediator between God and men" when sin interfered with a direct relationship with God. This actually proves that Jesus is not God, otherwise we would also need a mediator between us and him as well.
1 Timothy 2:5-6....
"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all....."
When God said "Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness" he was addressing his "master workman" (Proverbs 8:30) The son was working alongside his Father in creation. All things came into existence "through" the son. (Colossians 1:15-17) The son is "begotten" meaning that he had a 'begetter'....but the Father is without beginning or end....uncreated
Not necessarily, as God used other angels to deliver messages to his human servants. Gabriel springs to mind.
He was sent to Daniel and also to Mary some 500 years later. An angel also delivered the Revelation to John.
No. Since the creation is "through" the son, he was before anything else, including the angels. When God said "Let there be light" he was speaking with reference to the earth in its preparation for hosting life. The first thing needed was for light to penetrate the cloud layers so that vegetation could grow when dry land appeared. (3rd day) Light from the sun became visible before the atmosphere was sufficiently clear enough to expose the heavenly bodies. (sun, moon stars on 4th day)
We have no idea of the passage of time between the creation of the son and everything else. The Bible simply doesn't tell us.
Twilight Hue
Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
I thought nobody can look at God and live.When asked to explain how Jesus can be God, and at the same time be subject to God, many religious leaders reply with the words, "It is a mystery."
The scriptures evidently show that this teaching is a mystery, and solves it.
How so?
God - Jehovah
Isaiah 44:6
This is what Jehovah says, The King of Israel and his Repurchaser, Jehovah of armies: ‘I am the first and I am the last. There is no God but me.
Revelation 1:8
“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says Jehovah God, “the One who is and who was and who is coming, the Almighty.”
According to scripture, Jehovah - the almighty God - had no beginning. He is the beginning - Alpha and Omega.
The only begotten son - Jesus the Christ (Messiah)
John 1:14
So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father; and he was full of divine favor and truth.
John 3:16
For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, so that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life.
1 John 4:9
By this the love of God was revealed in our case, that God sent his only-begotten Son into the world so that we might gain life through him.
Colossians 1:15
...is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
According to scripture, Jesus the Christ, is the only begotten son of God brought forth first and foremost of all of God's creation.
From everlasting Jehovah God is.
The firstborn son of God did not exist for everlasting. He had a beginning. He was brought forth - begotten.
So apparently from what we see in scripture, persons who teach that Jesus is God, prefer to teach something that is difficult or impossible to understand or explain, because they do not want to teach the simple truths from God's word.
The Bible gives a description of these persons. 2 Corinthians 11:13-15
Mystery solved.
Skwim
Veteran Member
YOU SAY:
So your aim here is a bit puzzling. Care to clarify?
.
Well the scripture you present shows nothing of the sort, that Jesus can be god. Everything you produce shows that Jesus was not god, but his son.When asked to explain how Jesus can be God, and at the same time be subject to God, many religious leaders reply with the words, "It is a mystery."
The scriptures evidently show that this teaching is a mystery, and solves it.
How so?
So your aim here is a bit puzzling. Care to clarify?
.
When asked to explain how Jesus can be God, and at the same time be subject to God, many religious leaders reply with the words, "It is a mystery."
The scriptures evidently show that this teaching is a mystery, and solves it.
How so?
God - Jehovah
Isaiah 44:6
This is what Jehovah says, The King of Israel and his Repurchaser, Jehovah of armies: ‘I am the first and I am the last. There is no God but me.
Revelation 1:8
“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says Jehovah God, “the One who is and who was and who is coming, the Almighty.”
According to scripture, Jehovah - the almighty God - had no beginning. He is the beginning - Alpha and Omega.
The only begotten son - Jesus the Christ (Messiah)
John 1:14
So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father; and he was full of divine favor and truth.
John 3:16
For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, so that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life.
1 John 4:9
By this the love of God was revealed in our case, that God sent his only-begotten Son into the world so that we might gain life through him.
Colossians 1:15
...is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
According to scripture, Jesus the Christ, is the only begotten son of God brought forth first and foremost of all of God's creation.
From everlasting Jehovah God is.
The firstborn son of God did not exist for everlasting. He had a beginning. He was brought forth - begotten.
So apparently from what we see in scripture, persons who teach that Jesus is God, prefer to teach something that is difficult or impossible to understand or explain, because they do not want to teach the simple truths from God's word.
The Bible gives a description of these persons. 2 Corinthians 11:13-15
Mystery solved.
though the attempt is commendable it doesn't seem to clarify the issue
there is God, His Word, His Presence (Holy Spirit)
God creation heaven and earth, the His Presence came into His creation then He spoke in His Presence in His creation "let there be light"
God, the Power Jesus spoke of that He was going to sit at the right hand of. the Word now made flesh, and the Presence (the Holy Spirit) all are the Lord God to anything not God.
all the living that God has created are of a same concept, they live they communicate to the living in the environment they are present in via elements of the earth.
nPeace
Veteran Member
That is true, according to the Bible.
nPeace
Veteran Member
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
Except for Jacob, and Moses, and Isaiah.
nPeace
Veteran Member
Note though, you said,
Do you mean the early church - as in the first century Christians, or do you mean the Roman Catholic church?
As you said, apostle means one sent forth. In this case, you need to consider the context, because Jesus himself was sent forth. He was called an apostle, but he cannot be considered to have been "in the company of Jesus".
Therefore apostle is not restricted to being in the company of Jesus.
Paul was sent forth directly by Jesus.
(Acts 9:15) . . .But the Lord said to him: “Go! because this man is a chosen vessel to me to bear my name to the nations as well as to kings and the sons of Israel.
Romans 11:13; 1 Corinthians 1:1
Both Paul and Barnabas are referred to as apostles, bu Luke.
Acts 14:14
Skwim
Veteran Member
Perhaps they simply don't care.
What's puzzling about it?
Everyone else seem to have gotten the same thing you did.
But if you can't explain, you can't explain. .
Last edited:
TheBannerofHomuraAkemi
Active Member
You know when you put a Polytheistic view of a godhead on a Monotheistic scripture it turns out it doesn't make sense.
nPeace
Veteran Member
What are you taking about?Perhaps they simply don't care.
.
The post shows that according to the Bible, Jesus had a beginning - God didn't. Jesus didn't always exist - God did.
Jesus is indeed the son of God.
I am lost as to what you want explained.
Perhaps you need to make yourself clear.
BilliardsBall
Veteran Member
When asked to explain how Jesus can be God, and at the same time be subject to God, many religious leaders reply with the words, "It is a mystery."
The scriptures evidently show that this teaching is a mystery, and solves it.
How so?
God - Jehovah
Isaiah 44:6
This is what Jehovah says, The King of Israel and his Repurchaser, Jehovah of armies: ‘I am the first and I am the last. There is no God but me.
Revelation 1:8
“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says Jehovah God, “the One who is and who was and who is coming, the Almighty.”
According to scripture, Jehovah - the almighty God - had no beginning. He is the beginning - Alpha and Omega.
The only begotten son - Jesus the Christ (Messiah)
John 1:14
So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father; and he was full of divine favor and truth.
John 3:16
For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, so that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life.
1 John 4:9
By this the love of God was revealed in our case, that God sent his only-begotten Son into the world so that we might gain life through him.
Colossians 1:15
...is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
According to scripture, Jesus the Christ, is the only begotten son of God brought forth first and foremost of all of God's creation.
From everlasting Jehovah God is.
The firstborn son of God did not exist for everlasting. He had a beginning. He was brought forth - begotten.
So apparently from what we see in scripture, persons who teach that Jesus is God, prefer to teach something that is difficult or impossible to understand or explain, because they do not want to teach the simple truths from God's word.
The Bible gives a description of these persons. 2 Corinthians 11:13-15
Mystery solved.
You have some issues, however:
1. The Holy Spirit is God
2. There are trinitarian verses in the Bible
3. Jesus is the Savior and the Bible says God IS the Savior
4. The "today I've begotten you" is a prophecy of the resurrection of Christ--John and Luke and etc. are clear that Jesus is eternal, made the Creation, walked with Adam and Eve, visited Abraham and etc.
Jesus IS God and warns us both IMHO, "Unless you believe that I AM HE, you will die in your sins."
I worry for my JW friends, since they rely on works and I'm unsure they have trusted Jesus for salvation. You don't even pray to Jesus though He said, "Ask ME for anything in MY NAME," and not "Ask Jehovah for anything in Jehovah's Name."
nPeace
Veteran Member
Why are those issues?
If you can show me that the texts in the OP are not scriptural, we can take a closer look at what you consider issues.
Is it true or not that the son of Jehovah God - the father had a beginning, and did not always exist?
Is it true or not that Jehovah God - the father alone is the beginning?