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Featured Mystery Solved

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by nPeace, Jul 30, 2018.

  1. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    When asked to explain how Jesus can be God, and at the same time be subject to God, many religious leaders reply with the words, "It is a mystery." o_O

    The scriptures evidently show that this teaching is a mystery, and solves it.
    How so?

    God - Jehovah
    Isaiah 44:6
    This is what Jehovah says, The King of Israel and his Repurchaser, Jehovah of armies: I am the first and I am the last. There is no God but me.

    Revelation 1:8
    “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says Jehovah God, “the One who is and who was and who is coming, the Almighty.”

    According to scripture, Jehovah - the almighty God - had no beginning. He is the beginning - Alpha and Omega.


    The only begotten son - Jesus the Christ (Messiah)
    John 1:14
    So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father; and he was full of divine favor and truth.

    John 3:16
    For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, so that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life.

    1 John 4:9
    By this the love of God was revealed in our case, that God sent his only-begotten Son into the world so that we might gain life through him.

    Colossians 1:15
    ...is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

    According to scripture, Jesus the Christ, is the only begotten son of God brought forth first and foremost of all of God's creation.

    From everlasting Jehovah God is.
    The firstborn son of God did not exist for everlasting. He had a beginning. He was brought forth - begotten.

    So apparently from what we see in scripture, persons who teach that Jesus is God, prefer to teach something that is difficult or impossible to understand or explain, because they do not want to teach the simple truths from God's word.

    The Bible gives a description of these persons. 2 Corinthians 11:13-15
    Mystery solved. :)
     
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  2. Thief

    Thief Rogue Theologian

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    that's not the mystery......

    Jesus would be a descendent
    new testament attempts His lineage all the way back to Adam

    and Adam is a chosen son of God

    Jesus......first and only son of God?

    apparently not
     
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  3. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake ️️️️️️️️️️

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    There are some problems with your argument.
     
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  4. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake ️️️️️️️️️️

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    ...so?

    Mystery is different from interpretation. Jesus being God is easily explained, in more than one way.
    'Such as'

    Unless you're reading some other Bible, the Lord in the OT isn't invisible, or rather formless, at all.
    You didn't argue that Jesus isn't God, you argued that Jesus isn't the Abba.
     
  5. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake ️️️️️️️️️️

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    Most of these arguments, you encounter a very weird scenario, where Jesus is essentially a puppet for a entity that apparently can't be known, because it is formless. Hence, a rabbi, prancing around an empty throne, or something.
     
    #5 Desert Snake, Jul 30, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2018
  6. ASPls

    ASPls Member

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    While it is good for you to share your findings, I don't think it is within our right to outright brand any minister that explains differently/struggles to do so as "false prophets" or "false teaching". Not everyone is in the same level of spiritual understanding as you, and the Bible speaks differently to different people. We are all just trying our best to understand the complexity of God.

    While it does seem more truthful to you to view Jesus as a separate entity, it also has the risk of other people to then assume that Christianity is a polytheistic religion that worships 3 gods, or that we should only worship or pray to God the Father and not Jesus.

    I just feel that this condemning amongst denominations of Christians is just doing more harm than good towards spreading the core message that Jesus is the savior that died for our sins to transform us.
     
  7. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Whilst not speaking for nPeace I would like to ask you if you know when the trinity doctrine was adopted by the Catholic Church? It appears as if this doctrine was not part of original Christian teaching and the Catholic Church admits it.

    The New Catholic Encyclopedia states: “The formulation ‘one God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title the Trinitarian dogma. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective.”
    —(1967), Vol. XIV, p. 299.

    So, not "fully assimilated" into church doctrine until the end of the 4th century....that is over 350 years after Jesus died.

    So where did this idea come from? Would it surprise you to know that non-Christian religions have had trinities of gods for hundreds of years before Christ, and that the concept goes back to ancient Babylon?

    https://www.google.com.au/search?q=...gLwKHQulC7IQ_AUICigB&biw=1350&bih=635#imgrc=_

    According to the Athanasian Creed, there are three divine Persons (the Father, the Son, the Holy Ghost), each said to be eternal, each said to be almighty, none greater or less than another, each said to be God, and yet together being but one God. It is difficult to have three separate persons who can apparently be in three different places at once and can express different wills, to be considered one God. There is no way to explain the trinity scripturally as there is no direct statement from either God or Jesus that they share any equality.

    If you consider all the scriptures that relate to Jesus' relationship to his God and Father, you will see that there is not even a twosome, let alone a threesome.

    Even at John 1:18 it states that "no man has seen God at any time", which if Jesus was God makes that a lie.

    At John 17:3 Jesus calls his Father "the only true God" and speaks of himself as the one "sent" by him.

    There are so many other scriptures that prove that the trinity is false, but people have been indoctrinated with this belief for so long that it is too ingrained in many to be shifted.

    There is only one truth and we mustn't settle for anything less. We have an enemy who plated seeds of false Christianity very early in Christian history. (Matthew 13:24-30; 36-42) It was foretold that this would happen so we shouldn't be surprised that false ideas crept in and men followed other men down many different paths of interpretation. Today we have literally thousands of sects and denominations all claiming to be the truth.....so how do we know the truth from the lies? We examine each teaching to see if it agrees with scripture...all of it, not just some random verses.

    We ask questions and then evaluate the answers and ask God to help unravel the mystery for us.....or to expose it as a lie so that we can discard it.

    Did you ever realize that putting Jesus in equal place with the father is actually blasphemy? It is a breach of the first commandment. (Exodus 20:3) Please do not dismiss this without thorough investigation.
     
  8. Thief

    Thief Rogue Theologian

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    and of course....we all declare ourselves sons of God as we recite the Lord's Prayer

    Our Father.......
     
  9. Thief

    Thief Rogue Theologian

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    and as I recall......the book of Job has a preamble......

    the sons of God gathered to present themselves


    not very detailed....but there it is
     
  10. Thief

    Thief Rogue Theologian

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    and the Carpenter did say of Himself......BROTHER and fellow servant

    now when it comes down to it.....and He cannot call me brother.....
    maybe He will be kind enough to call me servant

    and I get to have duties in heaven

    better to serve in heaven than burn in hell
     
  11. ASPls

    ASPls Member

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    In that case, who does Moses see in Mt Sinai (Exodus 19:20)? As well as several other God's appearance in the Old Testament.
     
  12. ASPls

    ASPls Member

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    In the same chapter, John 1:1 says "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." which means the Word has been there from the beginning, not created. And I don't even know whatever else it means by "the Word was God".

    I am just genuinely curious at the moment. Perhaps there's an issue with translation, so feel free to enlighten me.
     
  13. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    That's a good query.

    I personally don't believe the problem may be with the translation, although some would disagree, but I think it is how we read, and understand. That's how I see it.

    (Isaiah 40:21) . . .Do you not know? Have you not heard? Has it not been told to you from the beginning? Have you not understood from the foundations of the earth?
    (Isaiah 41:4) . . .Who has acted and done this, Summoning the generations from the beginning? I, Jehovah, am the First One; And with the last ones I am the same.”
    (Isaiah 41:26) . . .Who told about this from the beginning, so that we could know, Or from times past, so that we could say, ‘He is right’? Indeed, no one announced it! No one declared it! No one heard anything from you!”
    (Isaiah 46:10) . . .From the beginning I foretell the outcome, And from long ago the things that have not yet been done. I say, ‘My decision will stand, And I will do whatever I please.’
    (Matthew 19:4) . . .In reply he said: “Have you not read that the one who created them from the beginning made them male and female
    (Matthew 19:8) . . .He said to them: “Out of regard for your hard-heartedness, Moses made the concession to you of divorcing your wives, but that has not been the case from the beginning.
    (Mark 10:6) . . .However, from the beginning of creation, ‘He made them male and female.
    (Mark 13:19) . . .for those days will be days of a tribulation such as has not occurred from the beginning of the creation that God created until that time, and will not occur again.
    (Luke 1:2) . . .just as these were handed down to us by those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and attendants of the message,
    (John 6:64) . . .But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning those who did not believe and the one who would betray him.
    (John 15:27) . . .and you, in turn, are to bear witness, because you have been with me from the beginning.

    I also think it is important that we try to understand what the Bible is saying, rather than see how we can interpret it to fit doctrines of men, which I find is done by many.

    With regard to the expression "the Word was God", perhaps you might want to research the Greek text, and compare it with this scripture - Acts 20:6
    If you could share your finding with me, I would appreciate that.

    Thanks for asking.

    Is anyone else having problem staying connected after those renovations were done, or is it just me?
     
  14. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    @Disciple of Jesus

    When Jehovah - the almighty God - the father began creating, no one existed, including the only begotten son - the one who came to earth as Jesus.
    Jehovah had no sons. He was alone.

    Are you denying this, and saying that the son of the almighty father (God), had no beginning, as is the case with his father?
     
  15. ASPls

    ASPls Member

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    Genesis 1:26, "Then God said, "Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness"
    Why is the term "us" or "our" is used, if He was still alone?

    I don't have access to any ancient language Bibles nor the ability to understand them at the moment, but I hope one day I can find the answer. Feel free to share your findings too in these regards.

    I don't see anything significant in Acts 20:6
    But we sailed from Philippi after the Festival of Unleavened Bread, and five days later joined the others at Troas, where we stayed seven days.
     
  16. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    I believe it was never a mystery, just misunderstanding of the Christianity people and misleading them by Paul- the self-acclaimed and fake disciple.
    Regards
     
  17. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    I agree with one, as explained in my post #16 , please.
    Regards
     
  18. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    When did God say, "Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness"?
    Better yet. When did God begin creating?

    When were persons told from the beginning?
    When did anyone hear of this message, that they could be counted as
    Can we attribute any of these beginnings to the beginning - God?

    Sorry. My mistake Acts 28:6
    You can use this:
    John 1 Kingdom Interlinear.
    Acts 28 Kingdom Interlinear.

    If you think it is bias, try this:
    John 1 BibleHub.
    Acts 28 BibleHub.

    The fact of the matter is that the word theon (θεόν) means God.
    The word Theos (Θεὸς) also.

    What is worthy of note, is that in John 1:1
    (1) Theos is used when referring to the word. Theon is used when referring to God.
    (2) The Greek word Theos (θεός) is a singular predicate noun occurring before the verb.
    (3) The definite article precedes Theon, whereas it does not precede Theos. This is because the Greeks never used the indefinite article.

    So when referring to a definite, they used "the".
    Definite article
    Attic Greek has a definite article, but no indefinite article.

    Interestingly, you would notice that the interlinear of BibleHub inserts the indefinite article in Acts 28:6 - theon (θεόν) .- a god
    Whereas they do not do the same in John 1:1.

    Many translations follow this inconsistency, not placing the indefinite article in John 1:1, thus leading to confusion.
    We have to ask why? Are they being honest? Why place the article in Acts, but not in John?

    This is not the case with the Kingdom interlinear, nor the NWT, which is consistent, in inserting the indefinite article in both texts - John 1:1, and Acts 28:6.

    There are other translations that see this as important, as well.
    Emphatic Diaglott
    The Emphatic Diaglott is a diaglot, or two-language polyglot translation, of the New Testament by Benjamin Wilson, first published in 1864. It is an interlinear translation with the original Greek text and a word-for-word English translation in the left column, and a full English translation in the right column.
    John 1:1
    In a beginning was the Word, and the Word was with the God, and a god was the Word.

    The Bible - An American Translation, by J. M. P. Smith and E. J. Goodspeed - 1935
     
    #18 nPeace, Aug 1, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2018
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  19. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    What do you mean by
     
  20. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    I believe:
    • Paul was never a disciple of Jesus,
    • Paul faked a vision to become one and
    • Paul doctored the anonymous gospel narratives to fake/invent new creeds
    • and made them base of Pauline Christianity, which has got nothing to do with the correct teachings of Jesus and or Mary.
    Regards
     
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