Terrywoodenpic
Oldest Heretic
I do not believe it is predictable at all. And I do not beliieve it is fixed.
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
My Thoughts on Calvinism
- Thread starter Rational Agnostic
- Start date
I do not believe it is predictable at all. And I do not beliieve it is fixed.
Earlier, the bar wasn't "I don't believe it's fixed;" it was "it can not be fixed." A bit of a difference.
Terrywoodenpic
Oldest Heretic
That is always the case with unproveables. Fixed or not fixed both are unprovable.
But by far the most likely is that the future is unfixed.
Rational Agnostic
Well-Known Member
Lol....another theist accusing me of hating something i don't believe exists.
dianaiad
Well-Known Member
Evidently those who God does not choose are not offered any 'gift.' So how can you blame someone for 'not having,' or 'not reaching' for something that isn't offered?
I have to admit; I am a firm believer in freedom of religion. I think that almost every religion has SOME truth in it.
but I have to admit that strict TULIP Calvinism makes my insides curdle. I would, honestly, rather not have anything to do with the deity this concept describes. Good thing that description of deity is utterly wrong.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
Shrugs. Im an old ball on RF ex-christians. Its interesting to ponder what god defined by the bible may do or not do. Technically, it depends on how you believed and its influence on you. "I rather have nothing to do with the diety..." sounds strong as if its more than rejecting the idea of the biblical god but rejecting god as an actual being?
If god was a person I would see no logic in ideally punishing someone not wanting the gift. Since god isnt a person, are you objecting to the idea of god in scripture or god himself?
Try again, I have done no such thing. I'm accusing you of missing the point. (Not that I endorse Calvinism, I consider it heretical).
According to a Calvinist everything accords to the all-encompassing sovereign will of God, which includes your disbelief. Your disbelief is willed insofar as it will ultimately serve the greater glory of God.
Telling a Calvinist that God is unfair only furthers their belief in total depravity. Of course you think that because unless God wills otherwise you cannot help but to think that.
(I also find it strange that atheists who tend to embrace determinism would criticize Calvinism for its determinism).
Last edited:
dianaiad
Well-Known Member
Actually, I wasn't objecting to the idea of God, just the strict Calvinist description of Him. I'm sorry that wasn't as obvious as I tried to make it.
None of us can adequately describe God; not theists OR atheists. How can we? We ARE talking about an entity that, supposedly, created the universe. How can any of us define what, or who, could do that?
It's just that as far as Calvinism is concerned...that is, the strict predestination and that a deity deliberately created beings who have no choice but to be eternally tortured, having no choice in the matter...that one seems to describe a deity that is far TOO understandable, in human terms. I can imagine a human doing that. I'm having problems imagining the deity who created the entire universe doing that.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
I see it less drastic. Simply, though, non calvanist belive they choose god. Calvanist believe god chose them. God cant do anything unless in the former they reach for the gift or the latter, god opens their hands to recieve it.
The presestined are those who let god give them a gift. To those who did not open their hands are not going to heeaven. God offered saovation/gift to All people. Those who accept were predestined. Those who do not, are not.
Once you accept you are predestined to heaven. Whether given or asked for god does the work.
How does god predestine some people to be saved when he died for all and its up to the christian whether he accepts the gift or reaches for it?
I dont see the negativity in predestination.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
Edited
I was wondering if you objected to god himself rather than the idea (Calvinist description of him, for example) but not god himself.
Unless, noting above, you are talking about a real entity, the description of the Calvinist god has been defined in the bible.
By default, if you do not accept god's gift, you do not receive its benefits. The default consequence of not accepting the gift of salvation (or choosing it for non Calvinist believers) is you will not receive the benefits of salvation, of the gift. That consequence is eternal separation from god: death.
If I believed you were drowning in the ocean and I come to offer my hand, if you accept, you are saved. If you do not accept, you drown. You are predestined to be saved if you grab my hand. If not, you will drown. That is Calvinist thought.
If I believed you were drowning and I say I will offer you my hand if you grab for it, and you don't, the consequence is the same, you drown. That is non-Calvinist thought.
The default is not from the person who tried to save you (me/god), it's from your not accepting the gift of salvation whether given or reached for.
As for being tortured, god says "I have not known you" meaning eternal separation from god. This is what I got from what Calvinists believe:
We Calvinists believe that all people rightly deserve eternal damnation and that it is God's sovereign right to elect some into salvation and let the rest go their natural way, to hell. We believe that God has made all things, even the wicked for the day of destruction (Prov. 16:4). We believe that God has mercy on whom He desires and hardens whom He desires (Rom. 9:14). We believe that God endures with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction (Rom. 9:22). We believe God's word.
Calvinist say you are a sinner. You are already predestined to hell (you are already drowning). If you do not accept god's gift, you will go to hell. It is not something god sends you to. It is something you choose on your own. It's an ultimatum that rests on the choice of the person to open their hands to the gift or reject it.
The Bible says "to those who believe", so if you don't believe, logically, you won't be with god. The "elect" are those who opened their hands to the gift god gave them.
One Calvinist put it another way, he said why would god let everyone go to heaven when humans sinned against god and it is their consequence of their sin that "sends" them to hell not god?
As for how it was told to you or read it can influence why you see it the way you do.
I was wondering if you objected to god himself rather than the idea (Calvinist description of him, for example) but not god himself.
God has been described in the bible. It's like saying we don't know who Aladdin (character in the Disney movie Alladin) is because we can't prove he exist to describe him. He (and Aladdin) both have descriptions that define his existence and relation to people on earth.
Unless, noting above, you are talking about a real entity, the description of the Calvinist god has been defined in the bible.
The Bible doesn't say non-believers have a predestination to be tortured. Calvinist idea is on god choosing the believer rather than the believer chooses god. So, if you do not believe, god has not chosen you. If you accept his gift of salvation, he has.
By default, if you do not accept god's gift, you do not receive its benefits. The default consequence of not accepting the gift of salvation (or choosing it for non Calvinist believers) is you will not receive the benefits of salvation, of the gift. That consequence is eternal separation from god: death.
If I believed you were drowning in the ocean and I come to offer my hand, if you accept, you are saved. If you do not accept, you drown. You are predestined to be saved if you grab my hand. If not, you will drown. That is Calvinist thought.
If I believed you were drowning and I say I will offer you my hand if you grab for it, and you don't, the consequence is the same, you drown. That is non-Calvinist thought.
The default is not from the person who tried to save you (me/god), it's from your not accepting the gift of salvation whether given or reached for.
As for being tortured, god says "I have not known you" meaning eternal separation from god. This is what I got from what Calvinists believe:
If you are a murderer and god offer you a chance to be free from the consequence of your crime, and you reject that chance because you didn't see the honesty and genuine nature of the free offer, why should you still be free of consequence when you didn't accept the offer of freedom?
We Calvinists believe that all people rightly deserve eternal damnation and that it is God's sovereign right to elect some into salvation and let the rest go their natural way, to hell. We believe that God has made all things, even the wicked for the day of destruction (Prov. 16:4). We believe that God has mercy on whom He desires and hardens whom He desires (Rom. 9:14). We believe that God endures with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction (Rom. 9:22). We believe God's word.
Calvinist say you are a sinner. You are already predestined to hell (you are already drowning). If you do not accept god's gift, you will go to hell. It is not something god sends you to. It is something you choose on your own. It's an ultimatum that rests on the choice of the person to open their hands to the gift or reject it.
The Bible says "to those who believe", so if you don't believe, logically, you won't be with god. The "elect" are those who opened their hands to the gift god gave them.
One Calvinist put it another way, he said why would god let everyone go to heaven when humans sinned against god and it is their consequence of their sin that "sends" them to hell not god?
As for how it was told to you or read it can influence why you see it the way you do.
Last edited:
dianaiad
Well-Known Member
I'm sorry. I read your post and I was confused...but then I really am confused here.
God, evidently, created the universe. He chose how to create it, and He decided upon the nature and characteristics of His creations. He is all powerful, yes?
From what I understand, and from what you have stated, Calvinism states that we are all sinners and destined for hell. WHY IS THAT?
God created us to be sinners? God created us (and from what I understand, each one of us, in Calvinist thought, comes into being at or or shortly after conception) considerably after Adam and Eve committed the original sin that we are still paying for. WHY are we, who according to this idea, didn't exist at the time Eve ate the apple, deliberately created with that burden? WE didn't choose it. Their sin isn't OUR fault...so why are we expected to pay for it?
You have also written how God chooses, in Calvinism, and in non-Calvinist thought, humans choose. Well, I think you can figure out that I'm a 'non-Calvinist' here. You have written that since we are all sinners from birth (or at least from our creation) that we have all deserved hell and it is only God's grace and choice that allows some of us...irrespective of anything we, individually, may decide to do or want...to go to heaven.
Isn't that what the 'irresistible grace" in TULIP stands for? If God chooses us, we CAN'T turn it down? Literally can not? As well, your description of 'God chooses you if you reach for Him..." well, isn't that what the 'non-Calvinists" believe, that God chooses us after we choose Him?
Either God has deliberately created all of us fit for hell, and simply has decided (for no reason at all that has to do with what WE want, or choose, to do) to save some of us, or He has offered salvation to all, and it is entirely up to us to accept or reject that grace.
..............or some other option; I'm going with the dichotomy described because, er, I can....
The problem here is that my personal beliefs make it difficult to be objective here. I'm VERY much a "We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.' * sort of believer. Puts me solidly in the 'we choose, because God has already chosen to offer salvation to everybody' category.
*2nd Article of Faith...Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day saints.....and yes, I'm a Mormon. Colors my perceptions a LOT.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
No biggie. Im always confused.
By scripture, yes.
The bible says we are all sinners and "by default" will go to hell---because of our sins.
We (going by scripture/GBS) sinned so we determined our own fate. Thats like blaming the judge because you are sentenced for murder.
The first part, GBS, we became sinners once we sinned.
The last, eve and adam did not give inherited sin. We sin because eve "unleashed" temptation which they didnt have before they sinned. The idea is we sin, they sin, humanity sins. Calv. we deserve death (murder deserves punishment) because we sin.
Its your sin thats your fault. Eve just opened the can of worms.
If its your decisi8n, then yes, you arent a calvanist. You are still predestined for heaven. God knew. You just made the choice.
We are all drowning, GBS. You reach for help, you are saved. (Non calv.) God reaches out his hand, you grab it, you saved. You are predestined to drown regardless of which position you want to see it in.
God, GBS, created you to worship him, multiply, and be with him for eternity. Eve messed that up. Now we know temptation. We sin. Our sin not god leads you to hell
Unless you repent and reach for his help or accept it
I remember an observant Jew mentioned we have temptation not inherited sin. The first humans were sinless. So where you before you sinned.
Either or, 8nce you sin with no repentence, gbs, we are punished "by our Own actions" not god's.
By scripture, yes.
The bible says we are all sinners and "by default" will go to hell---because of our sins.
We (going by scripture/GBS) sinned so we determined our own fate. Thats like blaming the judge because you are sentenced for murder.
The first part, GBS, we became sinners once we sinned.
The last, eve and adam did not give inherited sin. We sin because eve "unleashed" temptation which they didnt have before they sinned. The idea is we sin, they sin, humanity sins. Calv. we deserve death (murder deserves punishment) because we sin.
Its your sin thats your fault. Eve just opened the can of worms.
If its your decisi8n, then yes, you arent a calvanist. You are still predestined for heaven. God knew. You just made the choice.
We are all drowning, GBS. You reach for help, you are saved. (Non calv.) God reaches out his hand, you grab it, you saved. You are predestined to drown regardless of which position you want to see it in.
God, GBS, created you to worship him, multiply, and be with him for eternity. Eve messed that up. Now we know temptation. We sin. Our sin not god leads you to hell
Unless you repent and reach for his help or accept it
I remember an observant Jew mentioned we have temptation not inherited sin. The first humans were sinless. So where you before you sinned.
Either or, 8nce you sin with no repentence, gbs, we are punished "by our Own actions" not god's.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Would you mind elaborating?
It's very logically consistent, but its inability to reconcile God's sovereignty with mankind's free will and moral responsibility is a glaring weakness. Catholic and Orthodox theologies don't have this problem.
I guess I'll need to start by going into the main points of Calvinism - "TULIP":
The Five Points of Calvinism, TULIP
- Total depravity addresses the problem that some denominations have of suggesting that undeserving people end up in Hell. Calvinism's response is that there are no undeserving people.
- Unconditional election - the idea that God chooses who to save not on the basis of any human merit - flows from the idea of a perfectly sovereign, all-knowing, all-powerful god. Whatever criteria God has for salvation, he's infinitely capable of instilling them in the people he wants saved, and if a person isn't saved, God could have seen to it that he would have been saved, but chose otherwise.
- Limited atonement - the idea that Christ died only for the saved - flows from the idea that God never fails. If Christ had died for someone, then that person would have been saved, or Christ's sacrifice would have been partly in vain. Christ's sacrifice was not in vain at all, so he must not have died for the unsaved.
- Irresistible grace - the idea that if God chooses to save someone, then they're necessarily saved - flows from the idea that the will of an all-powerful God is irresistible. What God wills necessarily happens.
- Perseverence of the saints - "once saved, always saved" - is based on a similar idea to irresistible grace: what God wants to happen stays happened until God wills otherwise.
Calvinism is mostly about resolving the logical problems that Calvin saw in the Christianity around him.
That presupposes that free will actually exists to be reconciled. Why make that assumption?
Because even Calvinists say that if humanity has no free will, then we cannot be held morally responsible for our actions, therefore it would be unfair of God to damn anyone for actions that were entirely out of our control. Calvinism is intended to be compatibilistic in nature, and not deterministic.