Smoke
Done here.
The problem is, the data don't support what Ellis said here. Albert Ellis was a great man in many respects, not least in being unafraid to admit when he was wrong. He later thoroughly repudiated his earlier views on homosexuality.
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"My Son is Gay"
- Thread starter Ardhanariswar
- Start date
McBell
Resident Sourpuss
In 1973 the American Psychiatric Association declared that homosexuality was no longer a mental disorder and thus not properly subject to cure and in 1976 Ellis repudiated his earlier views in Sex and the Liberated Man, going on to become strongly supportive of the rights of gays, lesbians, and others.
Source
Anti-World
Member
That's interesting. I wonder what exactly he "repudiated". The idea that homosexuals can be treated or should? I'll have to read that book.
"Recent studies postulate biologic factors as the primary basis for sexual orientation. However, there is no evidence at present to substantiate a biologic theory ... Critical review shows the evidence favoring a biologic theory to be lacking." [W. Byne M.D., Ph.D., B. Parsons, M.D., Ph.D. (1993), Human Sexual Orientation: The Biologic Theories Reappraised, Archives of General Psychiatry, p. 228]
"... in a long series of studies on boys who showed effeminate behavior in childhood has demonstrated that although over half of these boys do become homosexual, a substantial minority of them do not. This indicates that gender-discordant children are not born homosexual, but rather are born with certain behavioral tendencies that, given contributory environmental factors, can predispose them towards homosexual behavior. Thus, a little boy whose behavior is effeminate, who does not like competitive athletics, and who prefers music and art, may be disappointing to a macho father, who tends to reject the boy and distance himself from him. The mother may respond by overprotecting her son. Such reactions disturb the boy's capacity to identify positively with his father and cause him to over identify with his mother. He may then ultimately develop homosexual erotic responses which are reinforced by later experiences." [J. Marmor, "Homosexuality: Nature versus Nurture," The Harvard Mental Health Letter, October 1985, p. 6]
"'The idea that people are born into one type of sexual behavior is foolish.' ... The move towards 'biologizing' homosexuality, he says, isn't the result of a scientific consensus, but a political consensus by those eager to label people gay or straight. Homosexuality, he says, is a 'behavior, not a condition,' and something that some people can and do change, just like they sometimes change tastes and other personality traits." [K. Painter, (March 1, 1989), A Biologic Theory for Sexual Preference, USA Today p. 4D]
"I have recently had occasion to review the results of psychotherapy with homosexuals, and been surprised by the findings. It is paradoxical that even though the politically active homosexual group denies the possibility of change, all studies, from Schrenck-Notzing on, have found positive effects, virtually regardless of the kind of treatment used ...". [R. Fine (1987) Psychological Theory, Male and Female Homosexuality: Psychological Approaches, p. 84, Diamant L, ed., Hemisphere Publishing: Washington, D.C]
Can Homosexuals Change?
By the way, I'd be interested in seeing the studies that show homosexuality is inborn.
"Recent studies postulate biologic factors as the primary basis for sexual orientation. However, there is no evidence at present to substantiate a biologic theory ... Critical review shows the evidence favoring a biologic theory to be lacking." [W. Byne M.D., Ph.D., B. Parsons, M.D., Ph.D. (1993), Human Sexual Orientation: The Biologic Theories Reappraised, Archives of General Psychiatry, p. 228]
"... in a long series of studies on boys who showed effeminate behavior in childhood has demonstrated that although over half of these boys do become homosexual, a substantial minority of them do not. This indicates that gender-discordant children are not born homosexual, but rather are born with certain behavioral tendencies that, given contributory environmental factors, can predispose them towards homosexual behavior. Thus, a little boy whose behavior is effeminate, who does not like competitive athletics, and who prefers music and art, may be disappointing to a macho father, who tends to reject the boy and distance himself from him. The mother may respond by overprotecting her son. Such reactions disturb the boy's capacity to identify positively with his father and cause him to over identify with his mother. He may then ultimately develop homosexual erotic responses which are reinforced by later experiences." [J. Marmor, "Homosexuality: Nature versus Nurture," The Harvard Mental Health Letter, October 1985, p. 6]
"'The idea that people are born into one type of sexual behavior is foolish.' ... The move towards 'biologizing' homosexuality, he says, isn't the result of a scientific consensus, but a political consensus by those eager to label people gay or straight. Homosexuality, he says, is a 'behavior, not a condition,' and something that some people can and do change, just like they sometimes change tastes and other personality traits." [K. Painter, (March 1, 1989), A Biologic Theory for Sexual Preference, USA Today p. 4D]
"I have recently had occasion to review the results of psychotherapy with homosexuals, and been surprised by the findings. It is paradoxical that even though the politically active homosexual group denies the possibility of change, all studies, from Schrenck-Notzing on, have found positive effects, virtually regardless of the kind of treatment used ...". [R. Fine (1987) Psychological Theory, Male and Female Homosexuality: Psychological Approaches, p. 84, Diamant L, ed., Hemisphere Publishing: Washington, D.C]
Can Homosexuals Change?
By the way, I'd be interested in seeing the studies that show homosexuality is inborn.
McBell
Resident Sourpuss
15 years
Anti-World
Member
Bleh... Simply because research is old, doesn't mean that it is invalid unless the research was incorrectly done.
"If homosexuality were significantly influenced by genes, it would appear in every culture, but in twenty-nine of seventy-nine cultures surveyed by Ford and Beach in 1952, homosexuality was rare or absent." My Genes Made Me Do it - a scientific look at sexual orientation by Dr Neil Whitehead and Briar Whitehead - Chapter 6
Dr. Tahir I. Jaz, M.D., Winnipeg, Canada states: "The increasing claims of being "born that way" parallels the rising political activism of homosexual organisations, who politicise the issue of homosexual origins . In the 1970s, approximately ten percent of homosexuals claimed to be "born homosexual" according to a large scale survey....However, in a survey in the 1980s, with the homosexual rights movement increasingly becoming active, thirty-five percent claimed to be born that way.
(Huh, what a coincidence.)
In 1980 a study was published in the American Journal of Psychiatry which stated that eleven former homosexual men became heterosexuals "without explicit treatment and/or long-term psychotherapy" through their participation in a Pentecostal church
(Did they lie?)
Homosexuality Statistics - Conservapedia
Anthropologists had observed that relatively uncompetitive primitive cultures such as those that do not distinguish or reward the best hunters in distinction to the other men in the tribe have virtually no homosexuality
(Those genes weren't in the mix, yet?)
"Science does not support that homosexuality is genetic" 2000
http://www.cwfa.org/images/content/bornorbred.pdf
Homosexuality and Genetics - Conservapedia
Biased sites, probably, but I have yet to see someone give be a link to a study that shows otherwise.
"If homosexuality were significantly influenced by genes, it would appear in every culture, but in twenty-nine of seventy-nine cultures surveyed by Ford and Beach in 1952, homosexuality was rare or absent." My Genes Made Me Do it - a scientific look at sexual orientation by Dr Neil Whitehead and Briar Whitehead - Chapter 6
Dr. Tahir I. Jaz, M.D., Winnipeg, Canada states: "The increasing claims of being "born that way" parallels the rising political activism of homosexual organisations, who politicise the issue of homosexual origins . In the 1970s, approximately ten percent of homosexuals claimed to be "born homosexual" according to a large scale survey....However, in a survey in the 1980s, with the homosexual rights movement increasingly becoming active, thirty-five percent claimed to be born that way.
(Huh, what a coincidence.)
In 1980 a study was published in the American Journal of Psychiatry which stated that eleven former homosexual men became heterosexuals "without explicit treatment and/or long-term psychotherapy" through their participation in a Pentecostal church
(Did they lie?)
Homosexuality Statistics - Conservapedia
Anthropologists had observed that relatively uncompetitive primitive cultures such as those that do not distinguish or reward the best hunters in distinction to the other men in the tribe have virtually no homosexuality
(Those genes weren't in the mix, yet?)
"Science does not support that homosexuality is genetic" 2000
http://www.cwfa.org/images/content/bornorbred.pdf
Homosexuality and Genetics - Conservapedia
Biased sites, probably, but I have yet to see someone give be a link to a study that shows otherwise.
Anti-World
Member
"Identical twins have identical genes. If homosexuality was a biological condition produced inescapably by the genes (e.g. eye color), then if one identical twin was homosexual, in 100% of the cases his brother would be too. But we know that only about 38% of the time is the identical twin brother homosexual. Genes are responsible for an indirect influence, but on average, they do not force people into homosexuality. This conclusion has been well known in the scientific community for a few decades but has not reached the general public. Indeed, the public increasingly believes the opposite." Whitehead
Study Seeks To Discover Genetic Origin Of Homosexuality
http://www.mygenes.co.nz/Ch12.pdf
I think i can find more... But I think I'll leave it at that.
Study Seeks To Discover Genetic Origin Of Homosexuality
http://www.mygenes.co.nz/Ch12.pdf
I think i can find more... But I think I'll leave it at that.
Smoke
Done here.
You can find a great deal more. Most of it will be disinformation put out by people who object to homosexuality, usually on religious grounds.
I don't know to what extent homosexuality is genetic, just as I don't know to what extent heterosexuality is genetic. The etiology of sexuality is complex and largely shrouded in mystery. However, programs to help people change have a very large failure rate and a tiny "success" rate. "Success" for these programs means that people discipline themselves to live as heterosexuals but still experience homosexual orientation. It's a lot of anguish for a virtually worthless result; we can force ourselves to live as heterosexuals without any therapy at all, just as heterosexuals could force themselves to live as homosexuals without any therapy at all. Heterosexuals who are segregated by sex -- in prison, for instance -- often do live as homosexuals. But they're still heterosexual. You can change the behavior, but not the orientation, and forcing someone to live a lie isn't psychologically healthy either for the person living it or for the spouse who has the misfortune to be living it with him.
McBell
Resident Sourpuss
Interesting that you seem to claim that there is NO research that has been done in the area since 1993.
And to think that back in 1952 homosexuals were just dying to tell the world they were gay.
So what.
I could care less what you or anyone else believes concerning the gay gene.
i am more interested in the science of it.
Again, so what.
And for the same reason.
yes because it is well known that homosexuals never hid their sexual preferences.
That shows what otherwise?
That there is MORE CURRENT research that indicates there is a gay gene?
That is merely because you chose to ignore them.
Besides which, everyone knows that biased and outdated research that ratifies your own preconceived notions is the most important type of research.
Why do Identical twins have different personalities?
Why do identical twin have different likes and dislikes?
How then can one twin suffer from a genetic disorder and the other one not?
i can go on... But I think I'll leave it at that.
agent_smith
I evolved.
Culture.
Culture.
Nurture? Mutation?
Is it important?
Homosexuality is 0% genetic.
McBell
Resident Sourpuss
Opinion.
The official verdict is still out.
Francine
Well-Known Member
So is a preference for using the left hand. And both are equally outside the realm of moral judgment.
agent_smith
I evolved.
Statistically, the identical twin of a left-handed person has a 76 percent chance of being left-handed, identifying the cause(s) as partly genetic and partly environmental.
Source: Left-handedness - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Francine
Well-Known Member
There's also a study that says the farther down the birth order one is, the more likely they will be gay. Presumably, this is because the genes "know" the older brothers have probably already made sure the family name is secure.
JamBar85
Master Designer
rajakrsna
Member
There`s nothing wrong with that. It`s just that your son actually is your daughter in a man`s body.:yes:
Francine
Well-Known Member
That's gender dysphoria, which is a whole different animal from homosexuality.
Smoke
Done here.
And statistically, the identical twin of a homosexual person is far more likely to be homosexual than a fraternal twin. So there goes your theory about it being 0% genetic.
Smoke
Done here.
Specifically, the more sons a woman has, the more likely the younger ones are to be gay. The studies bear out what was already common folk knowledge, at least in the South. I've often heard "change of life baby" used as a euphemism for gay.
agent_smith
I evolved.
But... I'm not against homosexuality...
