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my questions about buddhism and shunyata/dependant origination etc

Discussion in 'Buddhism DIR' started by LotusScent, Mar 6, 2021.

  1. LotusScent

    LotusScent New Member

    Feb 4, 2020
    Dependant origination is the dharma.Buddha said that' dependant origination is the dhamma'.the entirety of Buddhist philosophy is tied into dependant origination and logically is connected to it.

    Dependant origination states that a thing does not come into being except being dependant on something else,infinitely.it is based on one necassery concept:

    True Arising.wich means exnihilo.all true arisings outside of a mind like in Panentheism(including 'weak 'Palamist panentheism)are exnihilo.

    True Arising is basically any concrete existential arising that isn't merely a change in condition in the form of a permanent thing or merely a thought construct within a mind(and thus not existentially concrete).

    Absolute Dependant origination is the idea,in contradiction to Theism that all things are dependantely risen rather then a creation being merely contigent on a higher power (weaker dependant origination).in this case,higher power would be free from being dependently originated so it isn't 'Absolute' .

    The first way to question dependant arising,is to refute exnihilo creation.exnihilo creation cannot be an actual thing because nothing,a true nothing produces nothing.

    all arisings outside the mind of a panentheistic creator with uncreated energies could be termed as exnihilo.something cannot concretely arise from itself,other,both or neither.Ju mipham the Tibetan scholar recognized this fact 1

    1.Four Great Logical Arguments of the Middle Way by Mipham Rinpoche and Khenpo Nüden

    Philosophy has also made serious questions against Buddhist shunyata(where a unconditioned reality that is concrete cannot exist)

    There Can Only Be Two Types of Concrete Realities:

    1.Conditioned Reality: Any reality that depends on something for its existence. For example, a Cow depends on its organs, the organs depend on cells, the cells depend on molecules, which depend on atoms,wich depend on electrons,wich depend on Quarks and so forth. This dependence is simultaneous at every moment the conditioned reality exists.

    2.Unconditioned Reality: Any reality that is self-sufficient, i.e. does not depend on anything else for its existence. This is what is called'(God).

    any conditioned reality depends upon another reality in order to exist by definition.

    Any conditioned Concrete reality, must depend upon:

    a finite number of conditioned realities alone

    or an infinite number of conditioned realities alone

    or a finite number of conditioned realities and at least one unconditioned reality

    A conditioned reality cannot be caused by a finite series of conditioned realities: If there is a linear series of conditioned Dharma, what would the first one depend on? Since it must depend on something, and there is nothing before it, the whole chain ceases to exist. Thus a linear chain of conditioned realities cannot exist. Additionally, a circular finite chain of conditioned realities could not exist either. This would simply result in each conditioned reality fulfilling their own conditions, which is against the definition of a conditioned Dharma.

    Conditioned realities cannot exist in an infinite Series either. A very large unlimited of number conditioned realities cannot exist,. As the number of conditioned realities in a series increases, the result continues to be non-existence. Continuously adding to the end of the chain would never allow for the conditions of existence to be satisfied, thus the entire infinite chain of conditioned Dharmas would never have its conditions fulfilled.

    If an infinite (I am granting Buddhists the notion that a actual Infinite can exist in quantity of concrete things for the sake of argument,I do not Believe this.Set theory does not help because its applicable only to abstractions)series of conditioned realities could exist on its own, the complete set of infinite conditioned reality would be an unconditioned reality. However, this is impossible because an unconditioned dharma cannot depend upon an aggregate of conditioned realities . if this were the case, it would be conditioned. Therefore, a set of infinite conditioned realities is itself a conditioned reality, and fails to exist on its own.

    Since any model made up entirely of conditioned realities can never have their conditions fulfilled, every conditioned reality must be caused by a series of realities that ends (or begins its ontological Series) with an unconditioned concrete reality.

    if the series of conditioned realities regresses ad infinitum without an unconditioned reality the series itself would be equivalent to nothing. if the series regresses infinitely to more and more fundamental conditions that have the same existential status as the aforementioned conditions, then the search for the fulfillment of conditions would go on endlessly.

    But if the search for the fulfillment of conditions would go on endlessly, then every hypothetical conditioned reality in the series would never have its conditions fulfilled and thus would never come into existence.

    No matter where we’re at in the series we’ll always come to a conditioned reality that is nonexistent because it is existentially dependent upon other nonexistent conditioned realities.

    So a unconditioned reality must exist.
    this reality must also be absolute pure being and unique,at least one unconditioned reality must exist in all of reality. I believe and will demonstrate based on Father Robert Spitzer's new arguments for the existance of God that this reality is what is absolutely simple ( pure existence) and unique, immutable, immaterial, eternal, perfect, personal, all-powerful, etc.
    The Reason it must be absolute pure existance is because the realities of our experience are restricted to particular modes of existance. They have distinguishing and diversifying principles that makes them this instead of that. These diversifying principles constitute what philosophers call restrictions or boundaries.
    These diversifying principles are Spatial,Temporal or by way of being.uch restrictions cause exclusion between existents and make for incompatible states of being.even though two existents may exist in the same way , they still can be separated from one another due to Temporal or spatial restrictions.

    Basically,restrictions (or boundaries) exclude and make for incompatibility.the less exclusive and more compatible a thing is with other realities, the fewer restrictions it has to limit its mode of being (less boundaries)—that is to say the simpler it is.if the unconditioned reality was restricted in its mode of existence by matter, then it would be restricted by a spatial restriction since all matter has extension in space – it would exist here instead of there.

    Now, such an intrinsic restriction would allow for a real or really possible incompatible state of being that would be excluded from it. But recall that the unconditioned reality cannot have any real or really possible incompatible states of being on the same level of simplicity that would be excluded from it less we end up with an intrinsic contradiction.

    Therefore, the unconditioned reality cannot be restricted in its mode of existence by a spatial restriction. And if the unconditioned reality cannot be restricted by a spatial restriction, then it cannot be restricted by matter. In other words, it must be immaterial.

    I hope that these questions about paticasamupada and shunyata can be answered.I hope to be wrong
  2. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

    May 5, 2007
    Atheist, Advaita (Non-duality), Orthodox Hindu
    I am a Hindu, but Buddha is my guru.
    To most Hindus, he is the ninth and the latest avatara of Lord Vishnu, a coming back of Rama and Krishna.

    "The first way to question dependant arising, is to refute exnihilo creation. exnihilo creation cannot be an actual thing because nothing, a true nothing produces nothing."
    I would not take it as proved. Some in science will agree to it, some will not (Zero-energy Universe, Multi-Universe, etc.). This is being investigated.
    Have you read the 'Kesamutti Sutta'. Buddha said: "Do not go upon what has been acquired by repeated hearing (anussava), nor upon tradition (paramparā), nor upon rumor (itikirā), nor upon what is in a scripture (piṭaka-sampadāna), nor upon surmise (takka-hetu), nor upon an axiom (naya-hetu), nor upon specious reasoning (ākāra-parivitakka), nor upon a bias towards a notion that has been pondered over (diṭṭhi-nijjhān-akkh-antiyā), nor upon another's seeming ability (bhabba-rūpatāya), nor upon the consideration, The monk is our teacher (samaṇo no garū)."
    That takes care of Mipham Rinpoche and Khenpo Nüden.

    "So a unconditioned reality must exist."
    I will go by that. But why are you making it into a being? That is a left-over from your theist days, discard it. Till you have these prejudices, truth will escape you. Free the reality from all sorts of restrictions - even the restriction of existence. Must it, all the time? Who knows all its properties?

    "it must be immaterial."
    What is material and what is not material? Is U235 material? Then how does it change into energy, which is immaterial? Remove this restriction also.
    #2 Aupmanyav, Mar 6, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2021
  3. Left Coast

    Left Coast Happy Spring!
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Apr 17, 2019
    Secular Buddhist
    I see many statements here, no questions.

    What are your questions about Buddhism?
  4. Twilight Hue

    Twilight Hue The gentle embrace of twilight has become my guide

    Mar 7, 2009
    Philosophical Buddhism
    Can a boundary be contained?
    Not really a question. Just observe.

    Besides, are there any notable exceptions that exempt dependant origination?

    Plus boundaries are involved , categorization which is probably where shunyata plays a role but never takes president in face of universal dynamics.

    I've wrestled with static and change and discovered so far that it's simultaneous in nature.

    It's impossible to point out any static phenomenon that never changes.

    It's impossible to deny eternalism because of those static boundaries are also subject to change and cannot be contained.

    It's why I embrace what can only be described as a true continuum.
  5. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

    May 5, 2007
    Atheist, Advaita (Non-duality), Orthodox Hindu
    Buddha asks you not to indulge in non-beneficial contemplation, the Acinteyya, just follow the Noble eight-fold path. That will save people from sorrow.
    That is good. Change is the only constant. According to Hindus, perhaps an inherent property of 'what exists'. See the Feynman Diagrams, not still even for a Planck's moment.