My OT class

[Deut 13:1]

While you scamper around trying to rob our Heavenly Father of His gender and His nature.

Some of the posts on this forum are worth reading just for their comedic value. :biglaugh:

Since you're so brilliant Dan, do tell me how in Hebrew, how I would say 3rd person singular non-gender.

 

[Deut 13:1]

what am i lieing about.

Are you really bold enough to say that the english, "he" is never in the MT.

 

[i believe in tranquility]

I am bold enough to say that the word "he" in Genesis 1:27 is not in the Hebrew bible. It was neccary for English to give define God. The literal translation is:

27 So God created man in own image,
in the image of God created him;
male and female created them.

The known English version:

27 So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.

 

[Aqualung]

We're not just talking about Gen 1 anymore. You say there is no reason to think god is male. I say there is. Deut says he is refferred to as "he" in the MT. I don't know where in the OT those references are, but they're some where.

 

[dan]

Some of the posts on this forum are worth reading just for their comedic value. :biglaugh:

Since you're so brilliant Dan, do tell me how in Hebrew, how I would say 3rd person singular non-gender.

How you would say the phrase "3rd person singular non-gender"? How you would say the word "it"? What exactly are you asking?

You should already be aware that Hebrew has no neuter nouns, concrete or abstract. 3rd person singular masc. is hoo, 3rd person singular fem. is hee.

If you think this is some kind of trick question then you're not very bright. You're trying to make it sound like you know more than me about Hebrew, but your comma usage in this post testifies of your own need of further education in the English language. Whatever you've been intellectually breastfed over the Internet about Hebrew is probably untrue, as well.

 

[dan]

I am bold enough to say that the word "he" in Genesis 1:27 is not in the Hebrew bible. It was neccary for English to give define God. The literal translation is:

27 So God created man in own image,
in the image of God created him;
male and female created them.

The known English version:

27 So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.

Oh, geez. You cannot have a Hebrew verb without a gender. The only verb in that whole verse (bara) is conjugated in the masculine. It means "he created".

 

[i believe in tranquility]

Aqua i refer to Genesis 1, because that is the "beginning", therefore whatelse that comes afer will refer to these original conceptions.

 

[i believe in tranquility]

dan: do you understand what idea im coming from?
Im saying that "he" was required in Enlish for it to make logical sense IN ENGLISH.
ill get you that literal definition of Hebrew, my quote was just an example: Im at school now, so technically Im not even supposed to be on, but ill try to get it as quick as possible.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Whatever you've been intellectually breastfed over the Internet about Hebrew is probably untrue, as well.

To say that of an Orthodox Jew engulfed in Torah study is remarkably stupid.

 

[Aqualung]

Aqua i refer to Genesis 1, because that is the "beginning", therefore whatelse that comes afer will refer to these original conceptions.

Sure, but the "what else" that comes after, as Deut has pointed out, is that god is referred to with actual masculine words.

 

[Aqualung]

dan: do you understand what idea im coming from?
Im saying that "he" was required in Enlish for it to make logical sense IN ENGLISH.
ill get you that literal definition of Hebrew, my quote was just an example: Im at school now, so technically Im not even supposed to be on, but ill try to get it as quick as possible.

And he's saying that it's not just some requirement to make the English make sense. He's saying that the "he" is there within the verb. That there may not be a "he" pronoun, but the verb is conjucated in a way that the he actually is there.

 

[wmam]

The word found in Genesis has nothing to do with the words you provided.

I never said it did. :banghead3

 

[Aqualung]

The Abrahamic cycle is told through a series of type scenes, like sitcoms. Sitcoms pretty much always have gererally the same plot, right? Soembody has some sort of misunderstanding or whatnot, and then in the end it is resloved... This is what the Abrahamic story is. The wife/sister thing that I will be discussing later is an example of a recurring type scene.

The abrahamic story is not a saga; it is a cycle. A cycle is a bunch of different stories that all focus on one guy. Forrest Gump and Big Fish are example of modern day cycles. They're a bunch of stories that focus on one person. They're not necessarily historically accurate, but are far more diachronic than the primeval stuff (gen 1-11).

The story of Abraham covers his journeys from Ur to Haran to Canaan (which at that time was under Egyptian rule) to Egypt and back to Cannan. Most of the story is from the J source, though we begin to see some more E.

 

[Aqualung]

In this chapter, Abraham is told to leave everything he has (his property, his friends, and his family) and to embark on a journey to . . . nobody knows. Why does Abram do this? Is it because God tells him to? Probably not. Abram probably only does this because God promises to "make his name great." Remember in the story of the Tower of Babel (one chapter before this) how people tried to make a name for themselves on their own? Well, now God comes downs and essentially says, "It's okay to have a name; it's just not okay to make it for yourself. You're going to need my help, and you're going to have to want my help." This hypostatic extension, however, is very vague, still. How will he have a name for himself? Well, God says that all the nations will be blessed through him. That's certainly a good place to start. THe nations will be blessed through him in that Abraham is the one through whom God reveals the way to Him. Before, everybody was just guessing what to do. Abraham is the guy that reveals how to deal with God.

Verse 7 is where we finally figure out what the promised land is. It's Canaan. When he finally gets to Canaan, Abraham invokes the name of the Lord, or in other words, he hypostatically extends God's name to his altar. So, while God promised hypostatic extension to Abraham, Abraham is giving the same back to God, which I find very interesting.

Now, Abraham takes Lot along with him on his journey. God specifically told Abraham, however, to leave his family behind. This is Abraham's first mistake, and our first look into his character. Abraham just does not have enough faith or does not care enough to follow God's commandments, and Lot comes back to haunt Abraham later.

A famine settles over the land of Canaan. Now, once again, Abraham, without conslulting God, Abraham decides to leave the promised land. Once again, this shows his lack of faith in God. He didn't think Canaan was good enough. After all, it was suffering from famine, and Egypt is the breadbasket of the world, not Canaan. So, off he goes to Egypt.

When he gets to egypt, you see the first wife/sister scene. He tells Sarai to just say that they are brother and sister. He reasons that if the Pharaoh knew they were married, he would kill Abram to get Sarai. (but is this really true? Apparantly not) So, they follow through with this. This is where Abraham really gets low, though. The Pharaoh doesn't have like a toll booth at the beginning of Egypt. Yet the Pharaoh's men managed to find out about the beauty of Sarai, and that she was available. Abram was advertising this. Why? The meaning becomes clear when you read the Pharaoh's reaction to getting Sarai. He blesses Abraham for allowing him to have Sarai. Abram pimped Sarai out for his own gain. And then, when the Pharaoh finds out that Sarai and Abram are married, he gets mad, but doesn't kill them. He just exiles them. Lo and behold, they end up back in Canaan, the promised land. (This is also probably how they end up with Hagar, the Egyptian slave.) Abram is not that great of a guy, or so it seems.

Lot and Abram now seperate. Abram gives Lot his choice of land. He chooses the good land. Lot is causing Abraham problems (since he wasn't supposed to be brought along anyway).

 

[Aqualung]

The rest of the abraham story I find kind of boring, so I don't think I'm going to talk about that much.

 

[dan]

I never said it did. :banghead3

then why on earth did you post it?

 

[dan]

To say that of an Orthodox Jew engulfed in Torah study is remarkably stupid.

An Orthodox Jew engulfed in Torah study would have to be autistic not to know that Hebrew does not have a neuter anything.

 

[nutshell]

The rest of the abraham story I find kind of boring, so I don't think I'm going to talk about that much.

Has Isaac been born yet?

 

[dan]

dan: do you understand what idea im coming from?
Im saying that "he" was required in Enlish for it to make logical sense IN ENGLISH.
ill get you that literal definition of Hebrew, my quote was just an example: Im at school now, so technically Im not even supposed to be on, but ill try to get it as quick as possible.

Any time you conjugate a verb in Hebrew it has to specify male or female. English does not have that kind conjugation so the translation takes it out of the Hebrew verb. The argument you are making is true, but such a literal translation makes it meaningless in English. The Hebrew denotes male and female, so the English does too.

 

[dan]

This would be a literal translation:

Andcreated God theman inhisownimage. Intheimageof God created him. Male andfemale created them.

Hebrew takes prepositions and tags them onto words. An absolutely literal translation of Hebrew is utterly meaningless.