My God Why have you forsaken me

[Thief]

There was no disagreement, remember Jesus said He and the Father were one, including their wills. Just because the suffering Jesus faced was extremely difficult and it was not something His human state anticipated as pleasant does not mean that He did not desire to go through with His mission to save humanity. One important part of His mission was to live a sinless life submitting His human will to the Father's on our behalf, because everyone else fails in that respect. This is what makes Him the substitute and Savior for the person who puts their trust in Him.


“I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep. But a hireling, he who is not the shepherd, one who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees; and the wolf catches the sheep and scatters them. The hireling flees because he is a hireling and does not care about the sheep. I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.
“Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.”
John 10:11-18

Another Christian rant......No one ever seems to get it right.

Giving your life is what you do when you are still breathing.

Giving up your life, is what you do during your last hour.

The Carpenter didn't save anyone by dying. His salvation is found in His teachings...His parables.
If you do not have His word in your mind and heart, the angels will not see His reflection in you.

The Angels will then leave you ...wherever you fell.

Dying on the cross was the culmination of events brought on by His ministry.
Teaching as He did, brought authority to the consensus, 'He must die'...
and that should not surprise anyone.

That He was willing to finish His ministry in such a manner has nothing to do with you.

 

[muhammad_isa]

His salvation is found in His teachings...His parables.
If you do not have His word in your mind and heart, the angels will not see His reflection in you.

Well expressed :yes:

 

[look3467]

The Carpenter didn't save anyone by dying. His salvation is found in His teachings...His parables.
If you do not have His word in your mind and heart, the angels will not see His reflection in you.>>>Thief

"It is expedient"Joh 11:50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.
Joh 11:51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;

If we understood the consequences of our creation we would see to understand the death of Jesus as the old creation and His ushering in the new creation.

It is all very simple! Making it into something other than simple is mankind's dilemma.

Blessings, AJ

 

[Hexavibrongal]

Do you think that this being the last thing Jesus says adds credibility to the crucifixion story by criterion of embarrassment?

( Criterion of embarrassment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia )

 

[look3467]

Do you think that this being the last thing Jesus says adds credibility to the crucifixion story by criterion of embarrassment?>>>Hexavibrongal

It was said of Him as a truth considering their not understanding the reason for His death.

Likewise, today His death is also denied its glory for lack of proper understanding.

Whatever things are/were sugar coated by mankind's own limitations to understand the truth of His death can, I believe fit, the criterion of embarrassment for those in that day and beyond.

Blessings, AJ

 

[Thief]

"It is expedient"Joh 11:50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.
Joh 11:51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;

If we understood the consequences of our creation we would see to understand the death of Jesus as the old creation and His ushering in the new creation.

It is all very simple! Making it into something other than simple is mankind's dilemma.

Blessings, AJ

And you didn't catch it even as you typed it.

You post speaks of patriotism....nothing spiritual.

Therefore my posting remains intact...as is.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

There was no disagreement, remember Jesus said He and the Father were one, including their wills.

This is a (One in purpose)...not 'being'. Remember, he expressed this same thought when he begged his god in prayer to make his followers one with he and his god.

As far as ("including their wills") you may have to expound a little on this because the biblical Yeshua says explicitly he has his own will and it existed in heaven seperate from his god before his god sent him....but it is evident that once his god sent him he was to do the will of "he/the one who sent him"

Etheridge (From the Pe****ta)
John 6:38-40
I descended from heaven not to do mine own will, but the will of Him who sent me. But this is the will of my Father who sent me, that of all whom he hath given me I shall lose not of him, but shall raise him at the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that every one who sees the Son and believes in him, shall have the life that is eternal, and I will raise him at the last day.

Just because the suffering Jesus faced was extremely difficult and it was not something His human state anticipated as pleasant does not mean that He did not desire to go through with His mission to save humanity.

Yes it does and it has already been shown that he didn't "desire" it. He was given a task...a mission from his god. He said he agonized deep within his spirit not to die. This gives us a since, theologically, that he was aware, by the commandment of his god, that he would lay down his life for the lost sheep of the house of Israel and even so didn't desire to.

Matthew 26:37-39
And he took Kipha and the two sons of Zabdai; and he began to be sorrowful, and to be vehemently agonized. And he said to them, My soul is afflicted unto death; wait for me here, and watch with me. And he removed a little, and fell upon his face, praying, and saying, My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; yet not as I will, but as you will.

“Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.”
John 10:11-18

See above. John 6:38-40 puts this in more perspective. Additionally, his prayer to his god in chapter 17 helps to clarify what he meant.

John 17:2-4
As you have given him power over all flesh, that to all whom you have given him he should give the life which is eternal. But this is the life which is eternal, that they know you, who are the true godhttp://chatbible.com/HolyName.html#Elah, and him whom you have sent, Yeshua The Messiah. I have glorified you on the earth; the work which you did give me to do, I have finished it.


17:6-8
I have made known your name to the sons of man; those whom you gave me from the world: they were yours, and to me did you give them; and they have kept your word. Now have they known that whatsoever you have given me is from you. And the words that you gave me I have given them, and they have received, and have known assuredly that from you I came forth, and have believed that you did send me.

Etc..Etc..Etc.........

 

[InChrist]

This is a (One in purpose)...not 'being'. Remember, he expressed this same thought when he begged his god in prayer to make his followers one with he and his god.

As far as ("including their wills") you may have to expound a little on this because the biblical Yeshua says explicitly he has his own will and it existed in heaven seperate from his god before his god sent him....but it is evident that once his god sent him he was to do the will of "he/the one who sent him"

Etheridge (From the Pe****ta)
John 6:38-40
I descended from heaven not to do mine own will, but the will of Him who sent me. But this is the will of my Father who sent me, that of all whom he hath given me I shall lose not of him, but shall raise him at the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that every one who sees the Son and believes in him, shall have the life that is eternal, and I will raise him at the last day.




Yes it does and it has already been shown that he didn't "desire" it. He was given a task...a mission from his god. He said he agonized deep within his spirit not to die. This gives us a since, theologically, that he was aware, by the commandment of his god, that he would lay down his life for the lost sheep of the house of Israel and even so didn't desire to.

Matthew 26:37-39
And he took Kipha and the two sons of Zabdai; and he began to be sorrowful, and to be vehemently agonized. And he said to them, My soul is afflicted unto death; wait for me here, and watch with me. And he removed a little, and fell upon his face, praying, and saying, My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; yet not as I will, but as you will.




See above. John 6:38-40 puts this in more perspective. Additionally, his prayer to his god in chapter 17 helps to clarify what he meant.

John 17:2-4
As you have given him power over all flesh, that to all whom you have given him he should give the life which is eternal. But this is the life which is eternal, that they know you, who are the true god, and him whom you have sent, Yeshua The Messiah. I have glorified you on the earth; the work which you did give me to do, I have finished it.


17:6-8
I have made known your name to the sons of man; those whom you gave me from the world: they were yours, and to me did you give them; and they have kept your word. Now have they known that whatsoever you have given me is from you. And the words that you gave me I have given them, and they have received, and have known assuredly that from you I came forth, and have believed that you did send me.

Etc..Etc..Etc.........

I will repeat something I said before: One important part of His mission was to live a sinless life submitting His human will to the Father's on our behalf, because everyone else fails in that respect. This is what makes Him the substitute and Savior for the person who puts their trust in Him.

Yes, Jesus had His own will, but He continually chose to submit His will to that of His Father because His will was the same as His Father's. The Son while fully human in the person of Jesus chose to keep His will under His Father's in order to live a perfect human life so as to be the perfect propitiation. Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. Hebrews 2:17 So even while in human flesh when He felt the temptations and sufferings we do He still subjected Himself to the Father"s will.
He also desired to do this because He is and eternally has been in perfect agreement with the will of His Father since they are One. I believe the scriptures present God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit as One in their God-like essence, nature, and attributes. If Jesus really didn't want to go through with the suffering He did on the cross, He wouldn't have, but He did.

Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one’s life for his friends.
John 15:13

Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. Acts 20;28

Man’s dilemma is SIN. No one is exempt from this. Yet, God had a solution from the beginning of the world. At a certain point in time He would become a man (John 1:14) and die for our sins (Jn.12:24. Somewhere in the eons of eternity was decided that the Son would be sent to earth. He was sent from heaven to earth to fulfill a mission of the utmost importance, to take care of man’s debt of sin (He is the “Lamb slain from the foundation of the world” (Rev.13:8b.) He came to seek those who are lost (Mt.18:11; Lk. 9:56,19:10).
Jesus' coming to earth is described in Philippians 2:6, He, "made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.”This is the reason he became a man, to give His body as a sacrifice for our sin. He became human to save sinful humanity. Vs.8 “Being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.”
God from the beginning had required a subsitutionary sacrifice for our sin. Since the Old Testament sacrifices of animal's was only temporary to cover sin, it was necessary to have something more, more powerful and lasting. Jesus is not just a human atoning for all the sins, He is God come in human flesh (1 Tim.3:16;. He died for all our sins past, present and future this can only be possible unless he is eternal. So unlike the Old Testament sacrifices it that could never take away sins, and needed to be repeated, this only had to be done once. As God, the Son's death had infinite value and His priesthood is an eternal one because the one who died was an eternal being (Hebrews 9:12-15).
Hebrews 5:9: “And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,
1 Peter 1:20: “He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you”
Hebrews 9:26: “He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.”


Why did Jesus Come to Earth?
Why did Jesus Come to Earth?

 

[internationalist]

Our pride cannot accept that Jesus died for our sins. Our pride cannot accept that Jesus has done the work of salvation for us. Our pride would rather have us do all the work and claim credit thereof.

 

[Thief]

Our pride cannot accept that Jesus died for our sins. Our pride cannot accept that Jesus has done the work of salvation for us. Our pride would rather have us do all the work and claim credit thereof.

It has nothing to do with pride.
It's all about scapegoating.

Lay your faults on someone else?
When He dies your shame disappears?
Really?

Believing Someone else had to die...for your sake...is indeed a shame.

Claim what is yours?...because you made it happen?
Of course you can.
Heaven will receive you as you received others.
Fair enough?

 

[internationalist]

It has nothing to do with pride.
It's all about scapegoating.

Lay your faults on someone else?
When He dies your shame disappears?
Really?

Believing Someone else had to die...for your sake...is indeed a shame.

Claim what is yours?...because you made it happen?
Of course you can.
Heaven will receive you as you received others.
Fair enough?

You call it scapegoating. Jesus calls it sacrifice.

 

[Thief]

You call it scapegoating. Jesus calls it sacrifice.

His salvation is found in His handiwork...His parables.

He saved no one by dying.
His life and teachings are the glory.

Scapegoating is an old practice that should have died long before the Carpenter walked.
Read the old testament and you will see the practice in detail.
It would seem, some people had a serious fascination for blood.
And they did believe the laying of hands transfers sin, one to another.

Lay your sins unto the animal...kill it...and your sin dies with it.

Do you really think so?

 

[look3467]

You post speaks of patriotism....nothing spiritual.>>>Thief

First it is in His honor, praise and glory of which I speak and second, it is the spiritual creation which is vital to this creation.

Not truly understanding the scope and purpose of His coming simply denies the whole spiritual significance of the second creation.

His message is the declaration of who and what the God creator is, but His sacrifice is in your honor.

If we are enlightened by His message to where we can accept His substituting His life for us, then we can appreciate our new creation process of renewal and life everlasting.

In the book of Genesis the very first thing God said was " Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

That is the message that Jesus came to make a truth out of, being that Jesus is the tree of life.

"Lest" you put your hand and reach out to that truth, you will remain as Adam.

Blessings, AJ

 

[Astounded]

Jesus was not calling on Elijah. On the cross Jesus who was fully God and fully human bore all the sins of the world in His flesh...every sin ever committed. In His holiness God the Father cannot look upon sin and and at that point the Father turned away from His beloved Son, forsaking Jesus in judgment of our sins which He bore. Never in all eternity had the Son been separated from His beloved Father until the cross. The agony of judgment and the utter separation is the reason Jesus cried out from His humaness to His Father... My God, my God why have you forsaken me? As awful as this was for Him to go through this was the mission He came to do for the sake of His creation, fulfilling scriptures and completing His work on earth. And before He died He said, "It is finished."

Correct. What is not incarnated is not redeemed. Jesus had to experience the effects of sin-separation from God-in order to be fully human...

 

[Thief]

First it is in His honor, praise and glory of which I speak and second, it is the spiritual creation which is vital to this creation.

Not truly understanding the scope and purpose of His coming simply denies the whole spiritual significance of the second creation.

His message is the declaration of who and what the God creator is, but His sacrifice is in your honor.

If we are enlightened by His message to where we can accept His substituting His life for us, then we can appreciate our new creation process of renewal and life everlasting.

In the book of Genesis the very first thing God said was " Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

That is the message that Jesus came to make a truth out of, being that Jesus is the tree of life.

"Lest" you put your hand and reach out to that truth, you will remain as Adam.

Blessings, AJ

I high lighted in blue, the only portion you had correct.

You are saved ONLY by His teachings.

 

[InChrist]

I high lighted in blue, the only portion you had correct.

You are saved ONLY by His teachings.

[FONT=&quot]Fundamentally, our Lord's message was Himself. He did not come merely to preach a Gospel;[/FONT][FONT=&quot] He himself is that Gospel. He did not come merely to give bread; He said, "I am the bread." He did not come merely to shed light; He said, "I am the light." He did not come merely to show the door; He said, "I am the door." He did not come merely to name a shepherd; He said, "I am the shepherd." He did not come merely to point the way; He said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life." [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]--J. Sidlow Baxter (Australian born English pastor and theologian)[/FONT]

 

[muhammad_isa]

[FONT=&quot]Fundamentally, our Lord's message was Himself. He did not come merely to preach a Gospel;[/FONT][FONT=&quot] He himself is that Gospel. He did not come merely to give bread; He said, "I am the bread." He did not come merely to shed light; He said, "I am the light." He did not come merely to show the door; He said, "I am the door." He did not come merely to name a shepherd; He said, "I am the shepherd." He did not come merely to point the way; He said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life." [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]--J. Sidlow Baxter (Australian born English pastor and theologian)[/FONT]

That's good .. I have no problem with that..
Believe in Jesus (peace be withhim), and it will lead you to success in this world and the next .. why?
Because it will change your behaviour! .. that is, if you take heed and follow his teachings about God (the Father)

 

[Thief]

[FONT=&quot]Fundamentally, our Lord's message was Himself. He did not come merely to preach a Gospel;[/FONT][FONT=&quot] He himself is that Gospel. He did not come merely to give bread; He said, "I am the bread." He did not come merely to shed light; He said, "I am the light." He did not come merely to show the door; He said, "I am the door." He did not come merely to name a shepherd; He said, "I am the shepherd." He did not come merely to point the way; He said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life." [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]--J. Sidlow Baxter (Australian born English pastor and theologian)[/FONT]

You and the person you quoted, don't seem to know where metaphors start and stop.

 

[InChrist]

You and the person you quoted, don't seem to know where metaphors start and stop.

You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life. John 5:38-40


Clearly the scriptures present Jesus Christ as the Savior and Jesus' own words indicate it is He Himself who saves those who believe in Him.

 

[look3467]

If we are enlightened by His message>>>look3467

I high lighted in blue, the only portion you had correct.>>>Thief

If His message was the only criteria for my own salvation, then i would have to stand on my own merits, as you.

Fortunately, for all of us, all of our good works merit nothing but as filthy rags, His works on the cross merits all our righteousness as a free gift.

The hardest thing for anyone to want to believe is that salvation is a free gift.

It seems that one should live a supper righteous life in order to merit one's own salvation based on the merssage that Christ gave.

That being the case, none of us, you included would expect to achieve salvation.

Christ's message is one after one's rebirth experience on how to live out that wonderful gift, salvation.

Working it out not before first receiving it. Otherwise, work it in vain.

Blessings, AJ