My God Why have you forsaken me

[InChrist]

Which makes me think about, as a Father, what must've that been like to allow your own son to suffer and die, even if temporarily, for a bunch of lowly humans (us).

It was a rescue mission which the Son willingly agreed to and desired to do for our sake.


But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8

 

[Thief]

Why did people think Jesus was calling on Elijah when he said My God Why you Forsaken me? What did Jesus really say and why would people have expected Elijah? Perhaps Jesus was also expecting Elijah but felt forsaken. Jesus wouldn't have been forsaken by God, I would have figured that Jesus could have saved himself at any time. In what way was Jesus forsaken?

Place yourself in that situation....yes you can.

Your last breath draws near.
There is no manner of comfort...only pain.
No escape.

During His life and ministry, the Spirit bolstered all that He said or did.
At no time was the advantage denied Him.
He spoke well, and His words were sharp.
And though miracles are no more than stories now....
something must have happened, there at hand, lifting His authority.
Some people feared Him, for whatever He might say.

But when His last hour was upon Him.....no response.
His words were not answered.
His naysayers reviled and mocked Him.

Indeed...'Why have you forsaken Me?'

I see it as fair warning.
Your last hour belongs to you.

 

[look3467]

1st is was fulfillment of prophecy. 2nd the answer to the question was silence.
3rd silence ment that Jesus had to go all the way, meaning to hell.
And 4th it is where Jesus' kingom begun.
God wanted Jesus to complete His mission.
Now there is reason to have visited those held in prison in order to liberate them.
God worked it all out in our behalf as a gift ofd of life.
Blessings, AJ

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Which makes me think about, as a Father, what must've that been like to allow your own son to suffer and die, even if temporarily, for a bunch of lowly humans (us).

Personally I don't think it has anything to do with that. Surely this god knows the outcome of all things before they'd even occur. Humans are a microscopic spec within the vastness of the universe and the universe is but a microscopic speck in relation to god of the bible.. If we start to ask the question...Why did his god do (A, B or C) then we must question if this god is truly omnipotent/omniscient. Otherwise what would be the point.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EF6aEFFMxjU

 

[Dirty Penguin]

It was a rescue mission which the Son willingly agreed to and desired to do for our sake.

No he didn't. Not according to his own begging and pleading with his god to spare his life. Even the time leading up to his arrest he was ready to put up a fight. His god, according to the bible as appose to the quran, didn't rescue him from anything. He was arrested, beaten and tortured and died at the hands of the Jews and Romans.

 

[look3467]

It was by design.
The first man Adam was by consequence lost.
The second man Adam is by design saved.

Now, all who are in with the second Adam while yet alive are saved as Jesus is.
All those before Jesus are saved at their visitation when Jesus visited them in prison, otherwise known as hell.

The whole point is that God could not create us as gods, meaning separate from Himself, without the consequence of separating Himself from us by our individuality. As separate entities apart from Him.

He knew that an thus, by His design, He re-introduces the tree of life as Jesus.

Jesus then becomes a new creation of which there is no consequence of our separation, thus reconciliation, and in which becomes our vehicle (Tree of life) to live forever.

Two references:
1. Reason for the two Adams :Rom 8:20 For the creature (1st Adam) was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected (2nd Adam) the same in hope, Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

2. Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

If we look at Rom 8:20, we see the design of the first Adam by verse with the red lettering Gen 3:22 ..."Behold, the man is become as one of us"...

Blessings, AJ

 

[InChrist]

No he didn't. Not according to his own begging and pleading with his god to spare his life. Even the time leading up to his arrest he was ready to put up a fight. His god, according to the bible as appose to the quran, didn't rescue him from anything. He was arrested, beaten and tortured and died at the hands of the Jews and Romans.

Jesus never begged. In His humanity he did not desire to go through the suffering of the cross, yet He desired to submit His flesh to the Father's will and complete His mission for the sake of saving lost humans. He never put up a fight, but went to the cross as a lamb to the slaughter as foretold by scripture. Had He not gone through with His work on the cross and bearing the penalty for the sins of the world or had the Father delivered Him, no one would have any hope of being saved from sin or having eternal life.

 

[internationalist]

Jesus was not calling on Elijah. On the cross Jesus who was fully God and fully human bore all the sins of the world in His flesh...every sin ever committed. In His holiness God the Father cannot look upon sin and and at that point the Father turned away from His beloved Son, forsaking Jesus in judgment of our sins which He bore. Never in all eternity had the Son been separated from His beloved Father until the cross. The agony of judgment and the utter separation is the reason Jesus cried out from His humaness to His Father... My God, my God why have you forsaken me? As awful as this was for Him to go through this was the mission He came to do for the sake of His creation, fulfilling scriptures and completing His work on earth. And before He died He said, "It is finished."

Amen.

 

[internationalist]

No he didn't. Not according to his own begging and pleading with his god to spare his life. Even the time leading up to his arrest he was ready to put up a fight. His god, according to the bible as appose to the quran, didn't rescue him from anything. He was arrested, beaten and tortured and died at the hands of the Jews and Romans.

Your hatred for the son of God is showing.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Jesus never begged.

Etherige (Pe****ta)

Luke 22:44
And being in terror, more vehemently he prayed, and his sweat was as drops of blood, and fell upon the ground.

Matthew 26:37-39
And he took Kipha and the two sons of Zabdai; and he began to be sorrowful, and to be vehemently agonized. And he said to them, My soul is afflicted unto death; wait for me here, and watch with me. And he removed a little, and fell upon his face, praying, and saying, My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; yet not as I will, but as thou.

Matthew 26:42
Again he went the second time, and prayed, and said, My Father, if it be not possible for this cup to pass, unless I drink it, be done thy will!

Matthew 26:44
And he left them, and went again, and prayed the third time, and said the same word.

Yes. He did beg.

In His humanity he did not desire to go through the suffering of the cross, yet He desired to submit His flesh to the Father's will and complete His mission for the sake of saving lost humans.

To an extent I agree. I'm not sure what you mean by ("in his humanity"). It's self evident he didn't want to die regardless what his god tasked him to do. He did say he came for the lost sheep of the house of Israel and he did say he would die for those whom his god gave him.

He never put up a fight

Never said he did. I said he was ready to and prepared his followers for a fight with those who sought to have him killed. Your scriptures are clear on that.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Your hatred for the son of God is showing.

You don't even know me!

Everything I said is corroborated by your scriptures.....

 

[idav]

It was a rescue mission which the Son willingly agreed to and desired to do for our sake.


But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8

The son didn't do it because he wanted to. He only wanted to do the will of the father. He asked that he not have to do it not by his will but by the will of the father. Apparently father disagreed.

 

[Blackdog22]

Correct. The word used in the Psalms meant (to leave). "My god, my god, why have you left (abandoned) me?

I think one of the other things we must be careful of is taking OT stories surrounding other people and attributing them to NT characters. Psalms 22, in context, seems to have nothing to do with Yeshua.

When I was a Christian we were told of all the prophesies of the OT and I jotted what my pastor was saying down on a piece of paper and then when I got home I went to verify what my pastor had said.

I even understood at a very young age that these passages had nothing to do with Jesus and were in no way any kind of prophesy. They were mostly stories being told by men, taken out of context, to make it appear as if it were a prophesy.

I gotta say it is annoying when certain Christians mention context and then fail when reciting what they claim as prophesy. Can't have it both ways.

 

[James Humphreys]

Why did people think Jesus was calling on Elijah when he said My God Why you Forsaken me? What did Jesus really say and why would people have expected Elijah? Perhaps Jesus was also expecting Elijah but felt forsaken. Jesus wouldn't have been forsaken by God, I would have figured that Jesus could have saved himself at any time. In what way was Jesus forsaken?

I believe there are two possibilities:
1)Because Adam lost faith and abandoned God when he fell, to restore that failure Jesus had to maintain faith in a moment when he was abandoned by God. Being abandoned means for the first time in his life Jesus could not feel God's presence within him.
2)The Aramaic speaking people near the cross heard Jesus correctly-he really did feel abandoned by Elijah. Why Elijah? Jesus said that John the Baptist came as the fulfillment of Malachi's prophecy of the return of Elijah. Yet, John finally doubted Jesus' messiahship when he was in prison. He, as Elijah, had to lead all the people of Israel to believe in Jesus (and proclaim that he himself was Elijah). But he denied being Elijah. Also, John did not exhort the thousands of his followers to unite with Jesus. Only in the first few days of John's testimony to Jesus did a few follow him. Instead, they remained as an independent movement that survived for centuries. In fact, the Mandaeans claim to be descended from John's followers, but in their scriptures Jesus is portrayed very negatively.

 

[Blackdog22]

Which makes me think about, as a Father, what must've that been like to allow your own son to suffer and die, even if temporarily, for a bunch of lowly humans (us).

Considering God makes the rules and it was his rule that he enjoyed the smell of the blood in the OT and thus a blood sacrifice had to be carried out for sins. The only reason Jesus was considered to be a sacrifice stems from the OT Gods love for burning goat blood. If God really cared about people, even his son, not being harmed he wouldn't of made it mandatory to have sacrifices and blood. This makes me think God didn't really care as he set up the rules.

That would be like me making a rule that if my own child picks up my favorite book I have to shoot him in the face, for rules that I made. Then crying that I "had" to do that.

I don't think God had any compassion on Jesus judging by his character previous to this situation.

I also don't think that Jesus was in any part God as there would of be no need to beg and pray in the garden. If he was part God he would of been talking to himself for one, at least in some way, having the mind of God and all. Two, there would be no need to discuss something with someone who you already knew would deny you and had already setup that you be sacrificed because some guy ate some fruit at some point in the past. I see this passage more as a reaffirming that Jesus was all man whom God, may of, occasionally spoke too, or was a schizophrenic man who occasionally heard voices.

 

[muhammad_isa]

.. Apparently father disagreed.

Ah well .. even 'a son' has to respect his father, and he could only be 'half-god', as his mother was a human-being.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

When I was a Christian we were told of all the prophesies of the OT and I jotted what my pastor was saying down on a piece of paper and then when I got home I went to verify what my pastor had said.

I even understood at a very young age that these passages had nothing to do with Jesus and were in no way any kind of prophesy. They were mostly stories being told by men, taken out of context, to make it appear as if it were a prophesy.

I gotta say it is annoying when certain Christians mention context and then fail when reciting what they claim as prophesy. Can't have it both ways.

Exactly. There's a lot of that going on in this thread and in general.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Even if we assume that Psalm 22 is a prophecy of the messiahs death, this is no reason to recite the first verse. Instead of shedding light on his messiahship, this actually casts more doubt. If he truly was the messiah, the son of god, then certainly he would have known this is what his mission had to come to. But not only here, but in the garden of Gethsemane, he showed intense doubt, fear, and anxiety at what he was about to face. Surely he would have gone into it with more courage than that. But him crying out, asking why god had forsaken him, for all to hear, would certainly have the effect on his listeners that he was unsure of his mission and station. If this event actually happened, then anyone could have gone back to this Psalm, and noticed all the similarities, and it would have indicated the importance of it, all without Jesus having quoted the first verse on the cross. This does him more of a disservice, in light of Christian dogma, than it having anything to do with pointing at a supposed prophecy.

I've heard one explanation for this. I'm not sure how much water it holds, but it sounds plausible to me:

At that time, the Psalms weren't numbered. Instead, they were known by their first line, much as many hymns are today. So... when Jesus said "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?", he was actually giving the title of the Psalm as it was known at the time.

IOW, it would be like someone shouting "Amazing Grace!" today - it would be understood by those watching to be an allusion to the content of the song, not just an exclamation meant to stand on its own.

 

[idav]

I've heard one explanation for this. I'm not sure how much water it holds, but it sounds plausible to me:

At that time, the Psalms weren't numbered. Instead, they were known by their first line, much as many hymns are today. So... when Jesus said "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?", he was actually giving the title of the Psalm as it was known at the time.

IOW, it would be like someone shouting "Amazing Grace!" today - it would be understood by those watching to be an allusion to the content of the song, not just an exclamation meant to stand on its own.

That is a valid argument. With the reference to Psalms it is apparent that the witnesses that said he was calling Elijah could have been reading context into the statement. Not that Jesus actually thought he was forsaken but the opposite, that god is with him and that what needs to be fulfilled will be. Which would explain why they didn't think god had forsaken him but that the messiah would come and save him.

 

[InChrist]

The son didn't do it because he wanted to. He only wanted to do the will of the father. He asked that he not have to do it not by his will but by the will of the father. Apparently father disagreed.

There was no disagreement, remember Jesus said He and the Father were one, including their wills. Just because the suffering Jesus faced was extremely difficult and it was not something His human state anticipated as pleasant does not mean that He did not desire to go through with His mission to save humanity. One important part of His mission was to live a sinless life submitting His human will to the Father's on our behalf, because everyone else fails in that respect. This is what makes Him the substitute and Savior for the person who puts their trust in Him.


“I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep. But a hireling, he who is not the shepherd, one who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees; and the wolf catches the sheep and scatters them. The hireling flees because he is a hireling and does not care about the sheep. I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.
“Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.”
John 10:11-18