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My God Why have you forsaken me

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by idav, Dec 15, 2011.

  1. idav

    idav Being
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    Why did people think Jesus was calling on Elijah when he said My God Why you Forsaken me? What did Jesus really say and why would people have expected Elijah? Perhaps Jesus was also expecting Elijah but felt forsaken. Jesus wouldn't have been forsaken by God, I would have figured that Jesus could have saved himself at any time. In what way was Jesus forsaken?
     
  2. CynthiaCypher

    CynthiaCypher Well-Known Member

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    He was quoting the scripture in Hebrew when those around him mostly understood Aramaic
     
  3. idav

    idav Being
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    I know the Eli thing is close but they knew enough to know a similarity. They expected something other than his death.
     
  4. Me Myself

    Me Myself Back to my username

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    I think he was caling for his master ELIAS, from his past life when he was Elissious.

    Of course mine is not the most popular christian interpretation :p
     
  5. Dirty Penguin

    Dirty Penguin Master Of Ceremony

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    Since he most likely spoke Aramaic he would have said most likely said.... 'Alahi, Alahi"...

    Considering, from what the bible decribes, he was in agony maybe some around him perceived he was calling out Elijah.



    Well considering he prayed to his god to spare his life maybe he felt abandoned.
     
  6. Sacred_Heart

    Sacred_Heart Member

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    Jesus quoted Psalm 22: 1 which begins with, "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?". Jesus quoted this Psalm in order to draw attention to it and the fact that He was fulfilling it there on the cross. Consider verses 11-18 in Psalm 22:

    Be not far from me, for trouble is near; For there is none to help. Many bulls have surrounded me; Strong bulls of Bashan have encircled me. They open wide their mouth at me, As a ravening and a roaring lion. I am poured out like water, And all my bones are out of joint; My heart is like wax; It is melted within me. My strength is dried up like a potsherd, And my tongue cleaves to my jaws; And Thou dost lay me in the dust of death. For dogs have surrounded me; A band of evildoers has encompassed me; They pierced my hands and my feet. I can count all my bones. They look, they stare at me; They divide my garments among them, And for my clothing they cast lots.

    You see the entire Psalter is thought to convey the messiah. Jesus was just fulfilling in prophecy what the Psalms spoke in spirit. And the Romans did divide his garments among themselves and cast lots for his clothing.
     
  7. dyanaprajna2011

    dyanaprajna2011 Dharmapala

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    Even if we assume that Psalm 22 is a prophecy of the messiahs death, this is no reason to recite the first verse. Instead of shedding light on his messiahship, this actually casts more doubt. If he truly was the messiah, the son of god, then certainly he would have known this is what his mission had to come to. But not only here, but in the garden of Gethsemane, he showed intense doubt, fear, and anxiety at what he was about to face. Surely he would have gone into it with more courage than that. But him crying out, asking why god had forsaken him, for all to hear, would certainly have the effect on his listeners that he was unsure of his mission and station. If this event actually happened, then anyone could have gone back to this Psalm, and noticed all the similarities, and it would have indicated the importance of it, all without Jesus having quoted the first verse on the cross. This does him more of a disservice, in light of Christian dogma, than it having anything to do with pointing at a supposed prophecy.
     
  8. Godobeyer

    Godobeyer the word "Islam" means "submission" to God
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    good point , that's contradiction that the most of the chirstains had no good answser on it . even you find , you will find personal explaintions (from the writers of the Gospels) not from Jesus (pbuh) . Jesus (pbuh) never claim that he should die , or he want to die !!!! the otherwise the writers did !!!!!!!!!
     
  9. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Well-Known Member

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    Of course not! Jesus (peace be with him) was a man .. an extremely pious man .. no, more .. an extremely important prophet/messenger.

    It's very easy to elevate somebody like that, to being 'a god' .. why should we trust the Roman interpretation of Jesus, when Emperor Constantine was the one who founded Christianity, with its 'trinity' and 'human sacrifice' dogmas. The Romans forced people to adopt this creed, many facing death on renouncing it. They felt more threatened by true monotheists than atheists..

    It's no surprise .. after all, the escalating conversions at the time, to the teachings of Jesus (Gospel), were destroying the empire! It's no different today .. many people in the west feel threatened by Islam (pure monotheism)
     
  10. Dirty Penguin

    Dirty Penguin Master Of Ceremony

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    Exactly.....:yes:
     
  11. espo35

    espo35 Active Member

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    Consider:

    Matthew 4:5-6

    5 Then the Devil took him along into the holy city, and he stationed him upon the battlement of the temple 6 and said to him: “If you are a son of God, hurl yourself down; for it is written, ‘He will give his angels a charge concerning you, and they will carry you on their hands, that you may at no time strike your foot against a stone.’”

    So, Jesus could not suffer harm.

    And Mark 5:30

    30 Immediately, also, Jesus recognized in himself that power had gone out of him, and he turned about in the crowd and began to say: “Who touched my outer garments?”

    So, Jesus could feel power being removed from him.

    If God was to allow Jesus' death, His protection would have to be removed. Jesus could feel this being removed (his power). Therefore, perhaps this is what he meant when asking God why He had forsaken him.
     
    #11 espo35, Dec 16, 2011
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2011
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  12. Trey of Diamonds

    Trey of Diamonds Well-Known Member

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    He may have actually said, "My God, my God, why have you left me behind?" Some ancient Christians believed that Jesus Christ was two beings; Jesus, the human and Christ, the divine. At the point of crucifixion, the Christ left Jesus' body causing him to cry out, My God, my God, why have you left me behind? This view is called Docetic.
     
  13. Godobeyer

    Godobeyer the word "Islam" means "submission" to God
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    look brother , "it's a goat even if it's fly in the sky" ,
    first of all , this is your own explain or the Gospel said that ?
    , even if i take , this claim is against that Jesus (pbuh) is God , because his power is not in his hand (it's not an option for him ) it (the power as you claim ) is an option for his GOD, why because ,when He want gave it to Jesus (pbuh) and when He want remove it .
     
  14. Dirty Penguin

    Dirty Penguin Master Of Ceremony

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    All the begging for his god to spare his life is the actual key to understanding what is said. Plenty of times Yeshua prayed and said his god heard his prayers....Even Martha said..that whatever he asked of "God" ...."God" would hear him....seems as thought this particular time it was different. His god appeared to not save him as he begged....(biblacally speaking).
     
  15. InChrist

    InChrist Free4ever

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    Jesus was not calling on Elijah. On the cross Jesus who was fully God and fully human bore all the sins of the world in His flesh...every sin ever committed. In His holiness God the Father cannot look upon sin and and at that point the Father turned away from His beloved Son, forsaking Jesus in judgment of our sins which He bore. Never in all eternity had the Son been separated from His beloved Father until the cross. The agony of judgment and the utter separation is the reason Jesus cried out from His humaness to His Father... My God, my God why have you forsaken me? As awful as this was for Him to go through this was the mission He came to do for the sake of His creation, fulfilling scriptures and completing His work on earth. And before He died He said, "It is finished."
     
    #15 InChrist, Dec 16, 2011
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2011
  16. Dirty Penguin

    Dirty Penguin Master Of Ceremony

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    :facepalm:
     
  17. idav

    idav Being
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    The problem I run into here is that Jesus was never really forsaken to begin with, certainly not by god his father. Except for maybe what Dirty Penguin mentioned about not having his prayer answered to be spared of the agony in the first place but unanswered prayers doesn't necessarily mean being forsaken either.
     
  18. Dirty Penguin

    Dirty Penguin Master Of Ceremony

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    Correct. The word used in the Psalms meant (to leave). "My god, my god, why have you left (abandoned) me?

    I think one of the other things we must be careful of is taking OT stories surrounding other people and attributing them to NT characters. Psalms 22, in context, seems to have nothing to do with Yeshua.
     
  19. InChrist

    InChrist Free4ever

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    The scriptures indicate He was forsaken, Jesus words show He was forsaken, and the Father had to forsake Jesus in the flesh, as the second Adam, in judgment while He bore the sins of the world on the cross.



    [FONT=&quot]In His sinless and perfect human body---prepared especially as a perfect blood sacrifice for the sins of the world---Jesus suffered terribly in body, soul, and spirit during the long night of His trial. That suffering began with the agony in the garden of Gethsemane and in all the humiliating events of His trial and cruel torture prior to His morning journey to Golgotha. The worst was yet to come. Death by crucifixion is an especially painful and terrible death. It was common in Roman times for crucified men in good health to hang dying on a cross sometimes for days, yet Scripture records that Jesus died within six hours' clock time. Even if He only suffered normal human pain in this ordeal it would have been incredibly severe.

    All this pain, however, was but the prelude to His real suffering, which involved being cut off from the Father's love and presence and consigned to carry our sins out of the universe, to hell as it were, like the scapegoat sacrifice of Israel of which he, Christ, is the antitype.

    The Scripture records three statements by Jesus during the first three hours on the cross when He served as the true Great High Priest before the Father and four further statements during the time of darkness from noon to 3 P.M. when the High Priest became the Sin-Offering. It was during the latter three hours, evidently, that the sins of all mankind were laid upon Jesus and the Father turned His face away from His beloved Son.[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]
    [/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]"For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God." (2 Corinthians 5:21)[/FONT]



    [FONT=&quot]When contemplating what really took place on the cross in the divine transaction between God the Father and God the Son, we must not think of the sufferings of Christ, terrible as they were (beyond our comprehension), as if they were constrained to a "mere" (endurable) three hours of absolute time. Human beings are basically spirits, and spirits are connected to the eternal dimension. Jesus was not like us in another sense: He had known no sin and suffered the additional revulsion and destruction of being changed from a perfect man into a loathsome, repulsive creature God could not look upon. He became sin by absorbing evil into his own person. The Messiah's sufferings as foretold by David in Psalm 22 can only refer to Jesus on the cross.[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]
    [/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]excerpt from:[/FONT]


    Jesus' Death: Six Hours of Eternity on the Cross
     
  20. espo35

    espo35 Active Member

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    Which makes me think about, as a Father, what must've that been like to allow your own son to suffer and die, even if temporarily, for a bunch of lowly humans (us).
     
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