That's what Richard Dawkins and atheists say about Christianity.
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"My God! My God! Why Have You Forsaken Me!"
- Thread starter Sunstone
- Start date
His perceptions were so advanced that they interlink with scriptures across the whole of the book," as if time doesn't exist"It is cryptic, as is everything that is stated by Yeshua, it has tons of interlinking prophetic meaning... So as pointed out, he is citing Psalms 22, and everything that links with it.
So the beginning of Psalms 22:1-22 is saying that David prophetically foretold, that the Jews would torture, and kill their own Messiah in the keyword usage Bulls of Bashan , Lions (Judah), brothers surround me, etc.
The end part of Psalms 22:23-31 is the coming of the Messianic age, where Yeshua then was heard, and receives the guest list for who is invited by his actions.
Isaiah 34:7 The wild oxen (Psalms 22:21) will come down with them, and the young bulls (Psalms 22:12) with the mighty bulls (Psalms 22:12); and their land will be drunken with blood, and their dust (Psalms 22:15 his death - Psalms 22:29 their death) made greasy with fat.
Psalms 22 is paraphrased in Isaiah 34 which is judgement day, where all those 'stouthearted' will be removed by the Lake of Fire for disrespecting Yeshua.
If we understand all the contexts, this is a shallow view of what is being put forward; nothing is ever as it seems...
This was all foretold to be this way for the sake of removing the ungodly; angels don't die, thus Yeshua wasn't forsaken, the Jews were at that point.
His perceptions were so advanced that they interlink with scriptures across the whole of the book, as if time doesn't exist, and someone has created this in a laboratory to test those who don't know how to read all context properly.
In my opinion.
That's a state of perception called kairos. I am extremely cautious on interpretations of that.
That answers it clearly so it is absolutely is wrong and heresy!!!! Lol.
Christian Theology can muddle it by asking why did he say that? Then turn and extend that into an infinite set of answers. But hey getting published tenure at university, and social status inside church are powerful drives to creating all kinds of books!!!!
I have had the conversation with women. We aren't that complex.
Scott C.
Just one guy
I think separation from the Father, his Spirit, and his supporitng influence comes in degrees for all humans. We can have more or less of that support as we go through life, sin, repent, draw closer to God, or drift from God. I believe Jesus enjoyed that support to a great deal throughout his life, because of who he is and because of his closeness to the Father. Angels bore him up and comforted him in Gethsemane. Angels can and do also comfort humans. But when Jesus was on the cross, I believe that the Father withdrew all heavenly influence and support. He probably was more alone than even most humans ever find themselves. I feel God's presence and support to some extent with me and I don't think I've ever been so completely on my own, as Jesus was on the cross. On the other hand, being a regular human, I have never felt as close to God as Jesus did in his life. I believe that is generally true for us humans.
Also, I believe that the suffering Jesus endured on the cross was greater than can be explained by the physical suffering only. In other words, if I were to suffer the same type of death, on a cross, with nails, etc., it would be excruciatingly painful. But, I would not suffer as much as Jesus did on the cross. In fact, we could imagine even more painful ways to die through some form of torture. But the suffering of Jesus went beyond the physical and into the spiritual. I believe there was great agony from being separted completely from the Father. That separation is what is felt by those who spend time in hell. I don't pretend to understand it all, but I do believe that Jesus endured the pains of hell for us, in addition to the pains of the cross. It had to be so in order to fully pay the demands of justice. The most profound, significant, and mysterious part of his suffering was of a spiritual nature and beyond our comprehension IMHO.
Ponder This
Well-Known Member
I'm suggesting that maybe it was to appease the people.
God already had a history of accepting repentance and Jesus had already forgiven various people their sins. In fact, one of the reasons the Pharisees objected to Jesus was because Jesus was forgiving sins. It was one of the reasons Jesus was crucified.
Since God can already forgive sins before Jesus was crucified, then why would God require the crucifixion?
The answer may be that it was the people who required it. Were they appeased? Maybe, maybe not. What do you think?
Kelly of the Phoenix
Well-Known Member
I feel he did betray himself. I think he started a bunch of drama to get busted because he thought God would do something epic. Instead, God was like, "Sorry, Bro -- you did this on your own." He told Satan one shouldn't tempt God and yet that's precisely what he did.
Gerhard Ebersoehn
Member
I believe the exact opposite.
When He died, the Holy Spirit tore the veil of the earthly tabernacle open and Covered Jesus where on the cross He Suffered Dying the Death of death, even entered his tomb God's Shekinah that neither in Suffering "NOR IN DEATH, HIS FLESH CORRUPTION SAW".
Klaas Schilder: "...in full Fellowship of the Trinity" : the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.
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A Vestigial Mote
Well-Known Member
It is told that the crucifixion of Jesus somehow enacted the absolution of sin. This is a basic teaching throughout much of Christian theology.
If "the people" were those appeased by the act of sacrificing Jesus, then are "the people" also those who somehow absolved themselves of sin? Does THAT make sense? Who was it who literally defined what sin was? Wasn't that God? So, if God is the arbiter of sin, and God is the one you have to answer to when you have sinned, then it can only be God who can absolve you of your sin, right? Who else has the power to do so? Are you saying that the crucifixion of Jesus has the power to absolve sin outside the involvement of God? Is the human sacrifice of a pure soul some magical thing that absolves sin even if God is not involved?
I don't feel your answers so far have been answers so much as dodges. Ducking the possibility that God may have actually required a human sacrifice to be appeased over his angst that humans continually engage in "sin". That's certainly more what the story suggests. He is the judge and doles out the punishment for offenses of "sin". Therefore, if there is no longer going to be the same punishment for sins, then it is God whose judgment needs swayed on the matter. And so, the sacrifice of Jesus SOMEHOW altered the perception of God on the matter of sin. And I am asking: what, specifically, was it about the crucifixion that changed God?
I think it might mean that he knew people would deflect from the way, the truth, and the life.
So, instead of his saying, have forsaken, he really said, will forsake. In my opinion.
My God! My God! Why will you forsake me?
I think it might all be about K.I.S.S.
ThePainefulTruth
Romantic-Cynic
I think you're close. He cleansed the Temple thinking God would retake the throne. But God never intervenes.
Experiencing the sins of others, is not an uncommon occurrence in human experience. Not sure if you've ever read the poem by Edna St. Vincent Millay, called Renascence. If not, you certainly should read it. It is a poem close to my heart. Here's a quick extract from one part of it:
I saw and heard and knew at last
The How and Why of all things, past,
And present, and forevermore.
The Universe, cleft to the core,
Lay open to my probing sense
That, sick’ning, I would fain pluck thence
But could not,—nay! But needs must suck
At the great wound, and could not pluck
My lips away till I had drawn
All venom out.—Ah, fearful pawn!
For my omniscience paid I toll
In infinite remorse of soul.
All sin was of my sinning, all
Atoning mine, and mine the gall
Of all regret. Mine was the weight
Of every brooded wrong, the hate
That stood behind each envious thrust,
Mine every greed, mine every lust.
And all the while for every grief,
Each suffering, I craved relief
With individual desire,—
Craved all in vain! And felt fierce fire
About a thousand people crawl;
Perished with each,—then mourned for all!
A man was starving in Capri;
He moved his eyes and looked at me;
I felt his gaze, I heard his moan,
And knew his hunger as my own.
I saw at sea a great fog bank
Between two ships that struck and sank;
A thousand screams the heavens smote;
And every scream tore through my throat.
No hurt I did not feel, no death
That was not mine; mine each last breath
That, crying, met an answering cry
From the compassion that was I.
All suffering mine, and mine its rod;
Mine, pity like the pity of God.
The How and Why of all things, past,
And present, and forevermore.
The Universe, cleft to the core,
Lay open to my probing sense
That, sick’ning, I would fain pluck thence
But could not,—nay! But needs must suck
At the great wound, and could not pluck
My lips away till I had drawn
All venom out.—Ah, fearful pawn!
For my omniscience paid I toll
In infinite remorse of soul.
All sin was of my sinning, all
Atoning mine, and mine the gall
Of all regret. Mine was the weight
Of every brooded wrong, the hate
That stood behind each envious thrust,
Mine every greed, mine every lust.
And all the while for every grief,
Each suffering, I craved relief
With individual desire,—
Craved all in vain! And felt fierce fire
About a thousand people crawl;
Perished with each,—then mourned for all!
A man was starving in Capri;
He moved his eyes and looked at me;
I felt his gaze, I heard his moan,
And knew his hunger as my own.
I saw at sea a great fog bank
Between two ships that struck and sank;
A thousand screams the heavens smote;
And every scream tore through my throat.
No hurt I did not feel, no death
That was not mine; mine each last breath
That, crying, met an answering cry
From the compassion that was I.
All suffering mine, and mine its rod;
Mine, pity like the pity of God.
The above, and the rest of the beautiful poem is not mere poetry, but a description of what is a rare, yet not uncommon, deeply spiritual experience of those touching the Face of God within themselves. "For my omniscience paid I toll, in infinite remorse of soul".
The question I want to ask you, is can you see that the Jesus story is greater than any contention that it was historically, or even metaphysically "the way things are"? In other words, can you see and hold the meaning, apart from being attached to the actual symbol, and understand that it's message and meaning is about us, and not just solely that one individual, Jesus? That Jesus, represents the Divine in us?
The reason I said what I did is because if you understand that if a temptation exists, there is an appeal to the thing that is being presented to the mind. Some part of ourselves is attracted to that. And that thing which is attracted to that, is in fact a lower level, a lower state of consciousness; lust, desire, greed, anger, arrogance, etc? So if he was tempted, these lower, "sinful" states had to have existed within him, right?
That he is said to have chosen not to act upon them, "Yet, without sin" stands as a symbol to us that we too, even though we have that "temptation" of the lesser voices in us too, like Jesus we can choose to not indulge ourselves in this. If he overcame these baser instincts in himself, then we can too. To me, this is the meaning of Jesus finding the path to God, so that we can follow. But if we say, no such "lusts" existed within him, then it is impossible for us to relate to him. Right?
The distraction is what separates us. We are looking in the wrong place.
Gerhard Ebersoehn
Member
Christiaan Gerhardus Ebersöhn
Father, in thy hands My Spirit I commend!
Was rent the Veil and
Under the Shadow of the Almighty
Abode The Suffering Servant of the LORD
Where Crucified they Him
Dying The Death of death.
Entered The Spirit of God
Hewn out of Rock of Ages
A Sepulchre new and Holy
Wherein Never Before
Man was First Sheaf Laid.
The Spirit Clouded Over The Mercy Seat,
That
Neither in Suffering Death
Nor In Death,
Was He FORSAKEN or
SAW HIS FLESH CORRUPTION.
Father, in thy hands My Spirit I commend!
Was rent the Veil and
Under the Shadow of the Almighty
Abode The Suffering Servant of the LORD
Where Crucified they Him
Dying The Death of death.
Entered The Spirit of God
Hewn out of Rock of Ages
A Sepulchre new and Holy
Wherein Never Before
Man was First Sheaf Laid.
The Spirit Clouded Over The Mercy Seat,
That
Neither in Suffering Death
Nor In Death,
Was He FORSAKEN or
SAW HIS FLESH CORRUPTION.
BSM1
What? Me worry?
No more than anyone else is "god". Jesus said as much many times. And what's that got to do with anything?
I enjoy hearing people say it. If jesus were god, he couldn't really forsake himself.
Gerhard Ebersoehn
Member
BSM1 said: ↑
He was quoting the start of the 22nd Psalms. As it was explained to me by a Rabbi it was the custom of the Hebrews to quote the start of the a Psalm in lieu of reciting the entire chapter.
So true!
But believe the literal Written Word for literal... Never!
Mat 19:1; 27-30
27 Τότε ἀποκριθεὶς ὁ Πέτρος εἶπεν αὐτῷ Ἰδοὺ ἡμεῖς ἀφήκαμεν πάντα
Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all,
29 καὶ πᾶς ὅστις ἀφῆκεν οἰκίας ἢ ἀδελφοὺς ἢ ἀδελφὰς ἢ πατέρα
every one that hath forsaken houses or brethren or sisters or father,
Mark 15:34,35 [Eks12:3:5 Mk7:32-35]
Ὁ Θεός μου ὁ Θεός μου, εἰς τί ἐγκατέλιπές με;
My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Mat 27:46,47
Θεέ μου θεέ μου, ἵνα τί με ἐγκατέλιπες;
My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Luke 23:44,45
τοῦ ἡλίου ἐκλιπόντος, ἐσχίσθη δὲ τὸ καταπέτασμα τοῦ ναοῦ μέσον.
And the sun was darkened and the veil of the temple was rent in the middle.
Mat 27:51a
Καὶ ἰδοὺ τὸ καταπέτασμα τοῦ ναοῦ ἐσχίσθη ἀπ’ ἄνωθεν ἕως κάτω εἰς δύο,
And behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom
Mark 15:38
Καὶ τὸ καταπέτασμα τοῦ ναοῦ ἐσχίσθη εἰς δύο ἀπ’ ἄνωθεν ἕως κάτω.
And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom.
In the Gospels ἀφίμι is the word in context for ‘to forsake’; while the word ἐγκατέλιπες from ἐγκαταλείπω is the word in context for “choose / sanctify / separate / hide / veil”, in the Most Holy Place on the Altar of Christ’s Passover of Yahweh Suffering in Full Fellowship of Father, Son, and, Holy Spirit.
Conclusion:
KJV with 'forsaken' for ἐγκατέλιπες is wrong!
He was quoting the start of the 22nd Psalms. As it was explained to me by a Rabbi it was the custom of the Hebrews to quote the start of the a Psalm in lieu of reciting the entire chapter.
So true!
But believe the literal Written Word for literal... Never!
Mat 19:1; 27-30
27 Τότε ἀποκριθεὶς ὁ Πέτρος εἶπεν αὐτῷ Ἰδοὺ ἡμεῖς ἀφήκαμεν πάντα
Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all,
29 καὶ πᾶς ὅστις ἀφῆκεν οἰκίας ἢ ἀδελφοὺς ἢ ἀδελφὰς ἢ πατέρα
every one that hath forsaken houses or brethren or sisters or father,
Mark 15:34,35 [Eks12:3:5 Mk7:32-35]
Ὁ Θεός μου ὁ Θεός μου, εἰς τί ἐγκατέλιπές με;
My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Mat 27:46,47
Θεέ μου θεέ μου, ἵνα τί με ἐγκατέλιπες;
My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Luke 23:44,45
τοῦ ἡλίου ἐκλιπόντος, ἐσχίσθη δὲ τὸ καταπέτασμα τοῦ ναοῦ μέσον.
And the sun was darkened and the veil of the temple was rent in the middle.
Mat 27:51a
Καὶ ἰδοὺ τὸ καταπέτασμα τοῦ ναοῦ ἐσχίσθη ἀπ’ ἄνωθεν ἕως κάτω εἰς δύο,
And behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom
Mark 15:38
Καὶ τὸ καταπέτασμα τοῦ ναοῦ ἐσχίσθη εἰς δύο ἀπ’ ἄνωθεν ἕως κάτω.
And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom.
In the Gospels ἀφίμι is the word in context for ‘to forsake’; while the word ἐγκατέλιπες from ἐγκαταλείπω is the word in context for “choose / sanctify / separate / hide / veil”, in the Most Holy Place on the Altar of Christ’s Passover of Yahweh Suffering in Full Fellowship of Father, Son, and, Holy Spirit.
Conclusion:
KJV with 'forsaken' for ἐγκατέλιπες is wrong!
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Gerhard Ebersoehn
Member
Its message and meaning is about that one individual, Jesus, before about any of us.