My gift or your fault: Quran 4:78-79 revisited

[Jayhawker Soule]

4:78

Wherever you are, death will overtake you, though you are in towers, raised high. And if good befalls them, they say: This is from Allah; and if a misfortune befalls them, they say: This is from thee. Say: All is from Allah. But what is the matter with these people that they make no effort to understand anything?​

4:79

Whatever good befalls thee (O man), it is from Allah, and whatever misfortune befalls the, it is from thyself. We have sent the (O Prophet) to mankind as a Messenger. And Allah is sufficient as a witness.​

The Holy Quran

These consecutive verses were explaine as follows ...

To sum up: every thing happens by the will and permission of Allah , and for some good reason , as he is all wise. So , if something (bad) happens to us , it's Allah's widom , to revise ourselves , and see what "BAD" within our selves, caused the Bad thing to happen to us. However, not all bad is considered a punishment from Allah; it may be a "test" for the believer, to raise his degree in paradise. The Muslim believes that everything happens for a reason, after all.

One can only wonder at a Diety that proclaims: I have washed your child out with the tsunami debris our caused your child to be born with AIDS to raise your degree in paradise. The problem, of course, is that this is not at all what 4:79 states. There is a world of difference between:

• misfortune is from you, and
• misfortune is for you.

It therefore seems to me that the very best one can do to harmonize 4:78 and 4:79 is to interpret them as conveying blame and punishment: Allah is the source of all things, but you have brought on yourself all of the misfortune in your life. And, indeed, this was the despicable theology voiced by some in the wake of the tsunami or, similarly, when Jerry Fallwell told us that "AIDS is the wrath of a just God against homosexuals.".

 

[maro]

full comment on the verses:

All is from Allah (The good and the bad) :

Allah's statement that all things are from Him means, everything occurs by the decision and decree of Allah, and His decision shall come to pass for both the righteous and the wicked, the faithful and the disbelievers.

everything happen's by Allah 's destiny , and i shall talk about the concept of "destiny" in islam , and how it doesn't contradict (free will) of human beings

The good is from Allah ;

meaning, of Allah's bounty, favor, kindness and mercy.

the Bad is from ourselves :

(But whatever of evil befalls you, is from yourself.), meaning because of you and due to your actions , sins and errors , and as a punishment for you. (but it's still god's destiny and occurs by his decree )

_if something "Bad" happens to me , i have to search the "Bad " within myself , becoz this is Allah's warning and alarm for me to wake up , and revise my deeds and intensions

Allah says :

[8:53] "Because Allah will never change the Grace which He hath bestowed on a people until they change what is in their (own) souls: and verily Allah is He Who heareth and knoweth (all things)."

and he says...

[13:11]"......... Verily never will Allah change the condition of a people until they change it themselves (with their own souls)............"


the prophet (pbuh) says :

Narrated 'Ubada bin As-Samit: I, along with a group of people, gave the pledge of allegiance to Allah's Apostle. He said, "I take your Pledge on the condition that you (1) will not join partners in worship with Allah, (2) will not steal, (3) will not commit illegal sexual intercourse, (4) will not kill your offspring, (5) will not slander, (6) and will not disobey me when I order you to do good. Whoever among you will abide by his pledge, his reward will be with Allah, and whoever commits any of those sins and receives the punishment in this world, that punishment will be an expiation for his sins and purification; but if Allah screens him, then it will be up to Allah to punish him if He will or excuse Him, if He will." (Book #93, Hadith #560)


_ this link gives a brief account on the concept of "destiny " as a major islamic tenet ;

http://www.islamonline.net/english/i...rticle03.shtml

Quote :
"Sheikh Muhammad al-Jurdani 4 defines belief in destiny as the conviction “that Allah Most High has ordained both good and evil before creating creation, and that all that has been and all that will be only exists through Allah's decree, preordainment, and will.”....................

As some Islamic theologians have explained it, “Allah has willed that you act based on choice.”8 We are held responsible for choosing an act but not for creating the act itself. In other words, Allah creates the act and by our choosing it, we “acquire” it and are thereby held responsible for it. Thus, human actions are created by Allah but performed by us.9......​

Whether we are removed from worldly causes and effects or are deeply submerged in them, we must always maintain the firm conviction that Allah’s Will, Power, and Preordainment control all affairs. In reality, Allah is the Doer of everything, such that causes in themselves do not carry independent efficacy. To believe that medicine in itself cures disease, for instance, is essentially to posit that a created thing is acting independent of its Creator. In other words, the thing would then be beyond the control of Allah, a belief that is little better than attributing a partner to Him. Yes, Allah ties things together according to a recurrent way, such that He satisfies hunger when a person eats, yet controlling it all is His singular Will and Power.10​

_To sum up:
every thing happens by the will and permission of Allah , and for some good reason , as he is all wise
so , if something (bad) happens to us , it's Allah's widom , to revise ourselves , and see what "BAD" within our selves ,caused the Bad thing to happen to us
_However , not all bad is consisdered a punishment from Allah , it may be a "test" for the believer , to raise his degree in paradise ,​

The Muslim believes that everything happens for a reason , after all

All is from Allah

​

the context of the verse: when the hypocrites sense a bad Omen because of the prophet​

prophet muhammad (Pbuh) :​

sura 4, verse 78​

"Wherever ye are, death will find you out, even if ye are in towers built up strong and high!" if some good befalls them, they say, "This is from Allah"; but if evil, they say, "This is from thee" (O Prophet). Say: "All things are from Allah." But what hath come to these people, that they fail to understand a single fact? ​

prophet Mosa(Pbuh)​

sura7,verse 131​

But when good (times) came, they said, "This is due to us," when gripped by calamity, they ascribed it to evil omens connected with Musa and those with him! behold! in truth the omens of evil are theirs in Allah's sight, but most of them do not understand! ​

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=55026&page=3
​

​

 

[maro]

These consecutive verses were explaine as follows ...One can only wonder at a Diety that proclaims: I have washed your child out with the tsunami debris our caused your child to be born with AIDS to raise your degree in paradise.

It therefore seems to me that the very best one can do to harmonize 4:78 and 4:79 is to interpret them as conveying blame and punishment: Allah is the source of all things, but you have brought on yourself all of the misfortune in your life. And, indeed, this was the despicable theology voiced by some in the wake of the tsunami or, similarly, when Jerry Fallwell told us that "AIDS is the wrath of a just God against homosexuals.".

since you don't believe in "paradise" , " reward and punishment" , "destiny" , and that "every thing happens for a very good reason " ,

i can totally understand why it's hard for you to digest such (islamic concepts),

Islam is complementry to each other . I can't expect that someone who doesn't know about God ,for instance , and doesn't believe in the judgment day to believe in destiny and that everything happens for a reason.

there is a world of difference between:

_misfortune is from you , and
_misfortune is for you

very true ,

(from) is much more accurate to deliver the meaning ,which is:

(yourself) is the origin of most of the misforune in your life ,
if something horrible happens in your life, search the "bad" within yourself , from which the "bad luck" in your life originates .

[8:53] "Because Allah will never change the Grace which He hath bestowed on a people until they change what is in their (own) souls: and verily Allah is He Who heareth and knoweth (all things)."

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

... if something horrible happens in your life, search the "bad" within youeself , from which the "bad luck" in your life originates.

..., i.e., blame the victim. It's a sad, primitive, and disgusting theological perspective. I would hope (and I fully suspect) that there are enlightened currents within Islam that reject such ugliness.

Parenthetically, maro, I much prefer large ideas to large text ...

Shalom.

 

[maro]

..., i.e., blame the victim.

Can i dare to ask : victim of what ? , or victim of who ? ,or let me say : who is the criminal ?

i am not saying that everyone who faces misfortune in his life is a criminal or is being punished ,but isn't it possible for some of the cases , jay ?

don't you think that it's better for somone to revise his (outcome) , instead of entitling himself as a victim of misfortune ?

don't you think that ourlives are somehow reflection of who we are ?

 

[fullyveiled muslimah]

And, indeed, this was the despicable theology voiced by some in the wake of the tsunami or, similarly, when Jerry Fallwell told us that "AIDS is the wrath of a just God against homosexuals.".

This is too oversimplified. To condense all of what maro wrote very simply is that Allah is the controller of all affairs, conditions, and circumstances. In this manner all the good and all the bad are from Allah. However, as for our actions Allah chooses not to have control over that. Or shall I say that our actions belong to us, which is why we are responsible for them. Allah creates the situation but does not, by His own will, control our reactions to them.

As far as the tsunamis go for instance, I am willing to bet it affected everyone differently. For some of the survivors I am sure they may have felt punished. For some I would guess they were made better people. Perhaps one who did not value life, came to value it after having been so near to losing it. Perhaps for some it was a punishment. For the victims, it is within Allah's knowledge only whether He was punishing them or not. I can say for sure that it was their time to go. The manner in which they left this world is not a good indicator for whether or not Allah was pleased with them at the time of death. Mayhaps Allah was pleased with them all, maybe none of them. This we cannot say with any amount of certainty.


Can you for certain Jay say that no ill condition that befalls a person can be a direct result of the evil they put out? Can you say for certain that all bad conditions that happen are not directly due to that person? We cannot look into the hearts of people to say for sure that a person didn't deserve this or that. "Good" and "bad" are relative anyways. What I feel is an unbearable situation, you may feel is a cakewalk.

Perhaps all the people who died in that tsumani are the people of paradise, Allah was pleased with all of them , and maybe we should envy their lofty position and be mad that we wasn't in it. Maybe......

We can only see a human POV to this because that's all we are and all we'll ever be, but there are two (or more) sides to every story. Allah sees a side we are unaware of at all times. Allah sees the heart of every person, and that is something we can never claim to know. Based upon that knowledge Allah does whatever action suits Him, and because we are unaware of all the existing facts, we cannot make a full judegement one just who deserves what. A nice person does not always equal to a good person.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Can you for certain Jay say that no ill condition that befalls a person can be a direct result of the evil they put out?

No - nor did I.

"... if something horrible happens in your life, search the "bad" within youeself , from which the "bad luck" in your life originates." - maro

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Can i dare to ask : victim of what ?

i am not saying that everyone who faces misfortune in his life is a criminal or is being punished ,but ...

Whatever good befalls thee (O man), it is from Allah, and whatever [i.e., all] misfortune befalls thee, it is from thyself. [Quran 4:79]

... if something (bad) happens to us , it's Allah's widom , to revise ourselves , and see what "BAD" within our selves, caused the Bad thing to happen to us.

So, maro, what "BAD" within those children "caused the Bad thing to happen"?

 

[fullyveiled muslimah]

And the posting of the picture was done because? Obviously if a person is born into some bad condition then it is not their fault. In a way though it still might be due to them. As I said before Allah knows His creation. Let's take the kids in the picture above ( the first picture you posted). I do not know the circumstances of the photo, but let's say for instance these types of bad conditions are all they have known. Who are we to say that Allah is doing them an injustice for that? We are unaware not only of their hearts, but the future also. It may be the case that Allah is sending them through a spiritual training for something good that will occur later on their lives. I thought it was common knowledge that not all that seems bad is not necessarily bad? Who we are and who we become is shaped by our experiences. Not every person benefits from what you or I believe to be good things. Perhaps the children in your picture possess some great quality of character that no other situation except poverty could give them. Maybe in Allah's great purpose for things He intends to give that quality to them and has therefore made them poor if even for just a short while. The great gifts that come from Allah are rarely in the form of something corporeal, especially money and finances. The greatest gifts from Allah are usually spritual in nature and help the person either in this life, the next life, or both. If Allah intends to give all those children paradise in exchange for having given them a hard life, and He forgives them of all transgressions past, present and future, is it still unjust? Wouldn't it have been more unjust of Allah to have given them better conditions knowing full well that it will lead them to the fire later?

My point is that things that always appear to us to be injustices commited by Allah, are not. Without full knowledge nor the ability to acquire said knowledge we are left clueless as to what is really deserved by whom. A victim of a brutal murder certainly appears to be a victim, but are they really? We don't know. Perhaps they are truly innocent and then again perhaps they have something they harbor deep within themselves that was concealed from all except Allah. Allah is the knower and He has an all-encompassing knowledge of His creation, knowledge both of what we reveal and what we conceal.

Is it the case that always a bad situation is presented as a punishment? Of course not, but what people don't ever like to face is that those situations do exist. Allah does punish people in this life, we just can't say who's getting it. Even in the punishment there is a lesson for us. Jay, if we choose to see every bad circumstance as a punishment we will always be victims of a merciless God. If we choose however to see things for what they are, and attempt to gain spiritual truth, knowledge, and betterment then we will be thankful for the hardship, because we will realize that without it we would not have become better. I know this from experience and I'm sure you have also learned this lesson first-hand. Isn't there some experience in your life that at the time you considered horrible, but after you came through it and reflected, you found that in fact it was a benefit to you? And if so, don't you think it can work the same way for others?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

And the posting of the picture was done because?

Hopefully to disturb a world-view that blames the victim for "whatever misfortune" befalls them.

Obviously if a person is born into some bad condition then it is not their fault. In a way though it still might be due to them.

I am losing patience with these evasions. Please post your speculations about what 'might' be elsewhere and address the central question of this thread: is it accurate that ...

"... whatever [i.e., all] misfortune befalls thee, it is from thyself"?​

 

[fullyveiled muslimah]

In your second picture I assume the children to be dead yes? If so they are in an enviable position at least from where I stand. They lived short lives, they were children so all they wanted to do was play, and they were given that opportunity. The conditions that caused their death (again I do not know the circumstances of the photo. I will assume it is either war or disease) were probably not fully realized by them. Instead of making them to live longer through such circumstances Allah took them back to Him. This is mercy not injustice. Allah gave them a short life, and because of the resilience of children they most likely found joy in it despite the surroundings. Before they were old enough to comprehend fully that maybe their mother was dead, or others in their family Allah took them back to Him and they are now in the gardens of paradise. They do not recall such times, they only know now of the good in which Allah is giving them presently. The good times they are experiencing will never end. On the other hand the good you or I might have now is temporary. Our fortunes could change instantly to bad, so who is in a better postion us or them? Humor me and imagine that Allah is who He says He is, and heaven and hell. If the children are in paradise and do not remember the bad of their short lives on earth who is in better place?



By the way, are you going to post photos or are you going to chat with us? I'd love to hear what you think after actually reading what I wrote, rather than post questionable photographs in response to what you feel is a despicable theology of "blaming the victim".

 

[fullyveiled muslimah]

Are you gonna post one-liners and respond to the part you want to, or are you gionna respond to the essence of the entire posts?

am losing patience with these evasions.

Wasn't aware I was evading anything. I can't be clearer than what I have already been. I do not know if you even understand what I am driving at in my posts. Do you? I'm sure you probably don't agree but do you at least see the other side of it? If not then I have wasted space on the forum, if so at least let me know what you think.

is it accurate that ...

"... whatever [i.e., all] misfortune befalls thee, it is from thyself"?​

I thought we clarified and reconciled the two verses you originally had a question about? Andherein is the problem, we never even closed that case first. Did you understand the explaination given? If not you need to say that, because had you understood it you wouldn't be asking it again in a different way.

 

[MdmSzdWhtGuy]

Jay,

You are absolutely right in your assessment, and, as I am sure you are aware, this backwards mentality is by no means restricted to Islam. Almost without exception in the Protestant, Biblical Literalist church's I grew up in, the people of the congregation had the attitude that if something bad happened to you, in some way or the other, you deserved it, or, if not, then it was "the work of the Devil." Any time bad things befell somebody, either that person did something to deserve it, and God allowed it to happen to punish them, or if they did not deserve it, then it was the Devil doing ill towards them and God allowed it in order to test them (a la Job).

It is a vile and disgusting thought process, but it is one that is shockingly prevelant. I think in many ways tho, it is a bit understandable that people have that mentality as it is a defense mechanism when they see horrendous misfortune befall someone apparently for no reason. . . they comfort themselves by saying "they probably did something do deserve it (and as I have not done anything bad, no such bad thing will happen to me)" or some other such coping/defense mechanism. This doesn't make it right, but I suspect it does help to explain the widespread nature of the phenomenon.

B.

 

[Sahar]

Basically What's this life except being a huge exam hall where everyday there is a test (Ibtila'); "Do men think that they will be left alone on saying, "We believe", and that they will not be tested?" (Holy Quran). This is the law of Allah in His creation. We are tested in our children, wives, we are tested in our health, disease, we are tested in our wealth, poverty...everything we face or we have is a test for us. Good and evil equally are tests; "We test you by evil and by good by way of trial. to Us must ye return." Holy Quran. And people's performance in the tests are different. We can take a very important kind of Ibtila' which is money; in wealth, some people will thank their God and help the poor and those in need. Others may forget their God and think what they are in is because of themselves and arrogance may fill their hearts. The same in poverty, some will accept Allah's decree, be patient and thank their God and and look for the causes that can promote their lives. Others will not accept it and say "why God?!". Thus money can be a gift or misfortune according to how i act. You said "my gift" or "your fault", i say just let "your fault" away now and lets concentrate on the gift aspect. With my patience, i can turn what i think is misfortune into a gift and with my thankfulness, i won't turn the gift into a misfortune. I can't say that disease in itself is a gift, but i can turn it into a gift. And every thing is good for one kind of people; the believers; "Wonderful is the affair of the believer! His affair in their entirety are good for him: if good befalls him, he is thankful, and that is good for him. And if harm befalls him, he is patient, and that is good for him. And this (prosperous state of being) is only for the believer." Hadith.
Why there is Ibtila'; "Do men think that they will be left alone on saying, "We believe", and that they will not be tested? " "We did test those before them, and Allah will certainly know those who are true from those who are false." Al 'Ankabut, "but (all this was) that Allah might test what is in your breasts and purge what is in your hearts. For Allah knoweth well the secrets of your hearts." Paradise doesn't have a free ticket, but with all kinds of Ibtila', those who pass the test will be rewarded and those who fail will be punished.
The other aspect of "misfortune" is that it's a reminder to return to our sins and faults and revise ourselves; what was the wrong we did? Also, in the time of calamity, i feel that i am weak and no human can benefit me so i don't find a resort except the resort of God and i stand in front of His mercy doors in humiliation and humbleness. Some people don't know their God except in the darkest moments.

So basically the nature of this life is Ibtila' and the most righteous humans i.e. the prophets were the most of humans who tasted Ibtila'.
Thus there are things that happen to us by the decree of God, we don't have any hand in them. And there are things that happen as a result of our actions by Allah's permission.

 

[Sahar]

So, maro, what "BAD" within those children "caused the Bad thing to happen"?

There is no bad they have done, it's Ibtila'.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I thought we clarified and reconciled the two verses you originally had a question about?

I have already acknowledged maro's clarification, and I suggest that the short form of maro's resolution was: "it's your fault that Allah did it." Alternate interpretations of

'... whatever [i.e., all] misfortune befalls thee, it is from thyself'​

are welcome.

 

[TashaN]

I have already acknowledged maro's clarification, and I suggest that the short form of maro's resolution was: "it's your fault that Allah did it." Alternate interpretations of

'... whatever [i.e., all] misfortune befalls thee, it is from thyself'​

are welcome.

Dear Jay,

Please allow me to ask thee this question, whom would you blame if something bad happened to you?

- God, (whether you believe in him or not)?
- Life?
- People?
- others?
- No one!

I'll respond to your question once you answer this question of mine, of course if you don't mind.

 

[joeboonda]

With the introduction of sin came death and the fall of creation. Some bad things happen as natural consequences of the fall, some we do to ourselves and each other, and some are correction from God to keep us from falling into worse things, and some are judgements of God.

 

[maro]

Whatever good befalls thee (O man), it is from Allah, and whatever misfortune befalls thee, it is from thyself. [Quran 4:79]

... if something (bad) happens to us , it's Allah's widom , to revise ourselves , and see what "BAD" within our selves, caused the Bad thing to happen to us.

So, maro, what "BAD" within those children "caused the Bad thing to happen"?​

ok,may be i wasn't clear enough,
My words "you quoted above" were explanation for that particular verse ,​

But as i mentioned before,
we don't pick one verse out of its context and generalize what it says, without linking it with the other verses and Hadith(s) related to the same topic, Clear ?​

The context of the verse " as mentioned earlier ":​

when the hypocrites sensed a bad omen because of the prophet (PBuh) , Allah told
them that this misfortune is how he punishes them for their disbelief and bad deeds​

The question is :​

Can we generalize and say that every misfortune or hardship is punishment from God?
Certainly Not​

Misfortune may also be ....​

1) A reminder for the people to come back and supplicate to their Lord before it's too late​

[30:41] " Mischief has appeared on land and sea because of (the meed) that the hands of men have earned. That (Allah) may give them a taste of some of their deeds: in order that they may turn back ". ​

2)purifaction and expiation for the believers' sins ,so that they won't
have to face the punishment in the judgment day
​

Narrated 'Aisha: (the wife of the Prophet) Allah's Apostle said, "No calamity befalls a Muslim but that Allah expiates some of his sins because of it, even though it were the prick he receives from a thorn." (Sahih al bukhari ,Book #70, Hadith #544)

3)A test "Ibtila" to raise their degree in Paradise​

Narrated Anas bin Malik: I heard Allah's Apostle saying, "Allah said, 'If I deprive my slave of his two beloved things (i.e., his eyes) and he remains patient, I will let him enter Paradise in compensation for them.'" (Sahih al bukhari ,Book #70, Hadith #557)​

And in all cases ,we never question God about his wisdom ,And we willingly accept his destiny , saying: "God has preordained and what he wishes ,He does."

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Dear Jay,

Please allow me to ask thee this question, whom would you blame if something bad happened to you?

The question says it all ...