My Christianity, Mere Christianity

[doppelganger]

I've been reticent for many years to lay claim to having "Christian" views. But the reality is that I am deeply, intimately and profoundly Christian.

My values and my identity are more shaped by my experiences and understanding of Christian mythology and the teachings and philosophy I find in early Christian writings than pretty much any other source. As I have matured in my knowledge of myself, what I consider my Christian identity has changed and will continue to change, but these are the principles of what I consider to define what it means to me to be Christian:

(1) Faith is not about belief (not "belief in God," and not about belief in certain metaphysical or historical events being "true"). Faith to me is an intimate sense of connection to the entirety of the Universe rather than my ego grasping of some piece of knowledge. And it's the confidence of letting go of my certain judgments, fear and anxiety that naturally flow from that sense and experience.

(2) My Christianity is not about morality. My Christianity is essentially about understanding and grace rather than judgment and condemnation. "Free will" is an illusion. People are what they are because of the endlessly complex web of all things that came before them. My conscious thoughts and my ego depend for their very existence on reinforcing the illusion that I create my thoughts. But I sense deep down that thought creates me and all the arbitrary judgments and fragments I perceive. Moral judgment is the antithesis of faith.

(3) My Christianity is not about authority, nor obedience to the rules and ideas written in any book, no matter how "Holy" I'm told that book is supposed to be. The Living God is not a noun, but a verb. It is the experience of compassionate connection to the universe and all the things I think I see in it that transcends my ego. So the Living God is not found in the Bible (or the Qu'ran or the lyrics from Meatloaf's "Paradise By the Dashboard Lights") though the symbols written there might help point me in the right direction. It is found in the feeling of compassion, grace and connection that lies under the illusions of separation that thought creates in the world as I experience it. Opening up to that experience is a reminder that as much as I may need to feel I know the truth about things, I do not.

(4) My Christianity is not about being right. It is about being true to what I feel. There are endless ways to poetically talk about the transcendent experience of love and connection that reveals the shallow illusions of thought, and the stories of Christian tradition are but one of them. My Christianity is as honest and real when I find it through reading a passage in the Baghavad Gita, the works of Dostoevsky, a scientific theory or the Bible.

I know that isn't your Christianity, and I wouldn't expect nor want it to be. So what is truly valuable to you in Christianity? And where does it lead you?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

I know that isn't your Christianity, and I wouldn't expect nor want it to be. So what is truly valuable to you in Christianity? And where does it lead you?

For me, it is the hope that God is working all things together for God's good purpose.

It is the promise of salvation through death and self-sacrifice. By this I mean the message of Christianity is love for neighbor and enemy that brings one inevitably to death for others, which saves both oneself and one's enemy. It's very scarey stuff, but death, it seems, is the only way out for us. God has promised to open this awesome struggle out into life.

It is in this struggle that I believe is the strength of Christianity.

 

[doppelganger]

It is in this struggle that I believe is the strength of Christianity.

What is "death" to you, Nathan?

 

[Ringer]

So what is truly valuable to you in Christianity? And where does it lead you?

I've heard it said once that God is like the sun; you can't look at it but without it, you cannot look at anything else. Christianity is merely the framework that I need to define the basic questions in my life. Where did I come from? What am I doing here (purpose in life)? Where am I going? What is truth? Christianity, but more importantly, my relationship with God, is what compels me to look at life through my eyes and not with them. In the end I hope it brings me to my heart's desire - home.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

What is "death" to you, Nathan?

Literal death. Destruction of all property first will usually preceed it.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Literal death. Destruction of all property first will usually preceed it.

I don't mean to aggrandize or idealize suffering like classical Roman Catholics are prone to do... I am actually quite afraid of both God and these consequences in themselves. In other words, I realize that it is terrible, but also that it is quite beautiful at the same time.

 

[doppelganger]

Literal death. Destruction of all property first will usually preceed it.

Ever studied Heidegger's writings on "death"?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Ever studied Heidegger's writings on "death"?

If I did, I don't remember offhand.

 

[doppelganger]

If I did, I don't remember offhand.

Well worth it. Death is a much more transformational and beautiful symbol than it might first appear. Don't have all my resources available, but here's a nice sample to whet your appetite:

If I take death into my life, acknowledge it, and face it squarely, I will free myself from the anxiety of death and the pettiness of life - and only then will I be free to become myself.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Well worth it. Death is a much more transformational and beautiful symbol than it might first appear. Don't have all my resources available, but here's a nice sample to whet your appetite:

If I take death into my life, acknowledge it, and face it squarely, I will free myself from the anxiety of death and the pettiness of life - and only then will I be free to become myself.

Yeah, philosophers can wax eloquently about death.

How many of us, though, allow ourselves to be completely wasted as Ghandi and Christ did?

I am thinking about this:

3 "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4"Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted.
5"Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth.
6"Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied.
7"Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy.
8"Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God. 9"Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.

And

Retaliation
38 "You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' 39But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40And if anyone would sue you and take your tunic,[g] let him have your cloak as well. 41And if anyone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42 Give to the one who begs from you, and do not refuse the one who would borrow from you.

Love Your Enemies
43 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48 You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

The only way to do this is to allow yourself to be destroyed!

To me, this is terrifying.

 

[doppelganger]

How many of us, though, allow ourselves to be completely wasted as Ghandi and Christ did?

Lots of people die for some symbol that makes them feel bigger than themselves. That's why people fight in wars. And lots of people are assassinated or murdered for their ideas - and didn't choose to do so.

 

[doppelganger]

To me, this is terrifying.

That's what faith is really for, maybe?

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/biblical-debates/38643-must-kingdom-god-fail-order-succeed.html

 

[angellous_evangellous]

That's what faith is really for, maybe?

Precisely.

But, IMHO, a faith is a struggle to realize that God is good while one's enemy is consuming them.

 

[doppelganger]

But, IMHO, a faith is a struggle to realize that God is good while one's enemy is consuming them.

God isn't in one's "enemy"?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

God isn't in one's "enemy"?

Well, perhaps. I'm working from an exegetical framework -

We are called to love God, our nieghbor, and our enemies, and these are all exegetically distinct. The enemy seeks to destroy, the nieghbor goes either way, and God is a force for good.

 

[doppelganger]

Well, perhaps. I'm working from an exegetical framework -

We are called to love God, our nieghbor, and our enemies, and these are all exegetically distinct. The enemy seeks to destroy, the nieghbor goes either way, and God is a force for good.

Then what does "love" mean? I submit that it's the key to this passage why an exegesis on the word "enemy" may do more harm than good.

 

[tomspug]

I've been reticent for many years to lay claim to having "Christian" views. But the reality is that I am deeply, intimately and profoundly Christian.

My values and my identity are more shaped by my experiences and understanding of Christian mythology and the teachings and philosophy I find in early Christian writings than pretty much any other source. As I have matured in my knowledge of myself, what I consider my Christian identity has changed and will continue to change, but these are the principles of what I consider to define what it means to me to be Christian:

(1) Faith is not about belief (not "belief in God," and not about belief in certain metaphysical or historical events being "true"). Faith to me is an intimate sense of connection to the entirety of the Universe rather than my ego grasping of some piece of knowledge. And it's the confidence of letting go of my certain judgments, fear and anxiety that naturally flow from that sense and experience.

(2) My Christianity is not about morality. My Christianity is essentially about understanding and grace rather than judgment and condemnation. "Free will" is an illusion. People are what they are because of the endlessly complex web of all things that came before them. My conscious thoughts and my ego depend for their very existence on reinforcing the illusion that I create my thoughts. But I sense deep down that thought creates me and all the arbitrary judgments and fragments I perceive. Moral judgment is the antithesis of faith.

(3) My Christianity is not about authority, nor obedience to the rules and ideas written in any book, no matter how "Holy" I'm told that book is supposed to be. The Living God is not a noun, but a verb. It is the experience of compassionate connection to the universe and all the things I think I see in it that transcends my ego. So the Living God is not found in the Bible (or the Qu'ran or the lyrics from Meatloaf's "Paradise By the Dashboard Lights") though the symbols written there might help point me in the right direction. It is found in the feeling of compassion, grace and connection that lies under the illusions of separation that thought creates in the world as I experience it. Opening up to that experience is a reminder that as much as I may need to feel I know the truth about things, I do not.

(4) My Christianity is not about being right. It is about being true to what I feel. There are endless ways to poetically talk about the transcendent experience of love and connection that reveals the shallow illusions of thought, and the stories of Christian tradition are but one of them. My Christianity is as honest and real when I find it through reading a passage in the Baghavad Gita, the works of Dostoevsky, a scientific theory or the Bible.

I know that isn't your Christianity, and I wouldn't expect nor want it to be. So what is truly valuable to you in Christianity? And where does it lead you?

I can understand how you came to these conclusions. And in many ways, I see the modern church as leaning more in these directions. However, I also feel that they are the wrong directions, for many reasons.

The whole point of Christianity, and religion in general, is about the human experience with reference to God... The current tendency is to leave God out of it altogether, which unfortunately removes all meaning from it. We fail to recognize this because we, simply, mistake ourselves for God.

Ego aside, our existence comes down to one thing: glory to God. We were created, by whatever means, for that purpose. Doing so not only brings us the satisfaction that comes from a creation doing what it was built to do, it also frees us from the burden of self-dependency which we so sadly are inclined to. To not bring glory to God, for whatever reason, simply lacks true purpose. Whether it is through morality, through devotion, or through submission, giving God glory gives us a sense of accomplishment, of worth that, despite what we are constantly told, is really the only thing that does, in the realest sense. This is something that can only be experienced to be acknowledged, I think, which is why I so firmly believe it.

The current perspective on morality is altogether flawed, as is our perception of authority. We live in a culture that rejects authority, even if it comes naturally through experience, parenthood, etc. This is, in part, the result of modern philosophy as well as the naivety of American culture. Morality and authority, in its uncorrupted state, are good. They protect us from harm, teach us to grow in maturity, and, apparently, bring us closer to the image of God. These definitions have been lost on us due to the association of religion with the corrupt powers of history. Despite the fact that we openly acknowledge the benefits of morality and authority in a philosophical sense, we refuse to put them into practice. Out of fear? Out of doubt? Or out of mere apathy? Whatever the reason, it is to our absolute detriment, I believe, that we allow ourselves to diminish the value of these qualities, which are inherent in the nature of God. In my experience, nothing but good has come from correctly valuing both authority and morality.

I agree that Christianity is NOT about being right. It is more about discovering what is right, whether it is through the Bible or any other source. However, what Christianity MUST be is about discovering what is right through a relationship with God, as a being. If that relationship is not established, I don't see how it can be defined as Christianity, which at is very basic level is about God and Christ and their interactive relationship with humanity.

I understand that you see God not as a being, but as an experience. But as I said before, if we remove God from the experience, the meaning of it all, in my opinion, is lost in obscurity. Without a source, a beginning, there is no conclusion and therefore no story, no experience, at all.

 

[doppelganger]

I used to think pretty much exactly like that tom, for many years. As I opened myself up to having my experiences be what they are, instead of boxing them in through my narrow egotistical need for certainty, those arbitrary limitations became less and less satisfying.

That approach fails the first and only "Christian" test, IMO. It's divisive.

 

[tomspug]

You make it sound like division is always bad. I think there is plenty of good reason to be divisive. You should not coexist with intolerance, with destructive forces, etc. Making a stand against something that is "wrong", in my opinion, is one of the bravest and best things a person is capable of.

Your view of Christianity leaves no room for such people. They are "trouble-makers".

 

[doppelganger]

Your view of Christianity leaves no room for such people. They are "trouble-makers".

Tsk. Of course my vision of Christianity makes room for them. Theirs doesn't make room for me (and I'm fine with that). But their need to pretend to be right doesn't change my experiences. :rainbow1: Why is it so important that everyone agree with your vision of what is the right form of Christianity, tom?