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Must We Believe in an 'Objective Reality' to Do Science?

PureX

Veteran Member
I am some what confused.

The thread seems to be going along the lines of "If a tree falls in the forest and no one is around to observe it, did it actually fall"
But then the thread seems to go further and seeks to determine if the tree actually existed in the first place, if no one was around to observe it.
But then the question is what of evidence of the tree falling, like a rotting tree trunk, but what if this tree fell a thousand years ago?
If no one was around to see it fall...
But then the thread gets into that what is seen is not reality in the first place...
which if true, then there is really nothing but what is perceived and reality does not exist at all.
Now if reality does not exist at all, then what is science measuring, observing, etc.?
the only conclusion would be a mass illusion/delusion, right?
I mean if science tests and observations, etc. can be replicated by multiple persons at different times and places....
The "tree", the "fall", and the "evidence" of it are all phenomena experienced and understood by us. That means they all "exist", to us, relative to our limited capacity to experience and understand. What and how they might "exist" beyond the reach of our limited experience and understanding us unknown to us, because these aspects of their presumed existence are not within our purview. Thus, this "objective reality" of which you speak, and in which you clearly 'believe', is actually and always beyond your grasp.

Much like "God" is to the theist.
 

McBell

Resident Sourpuss
The "tree", the "fall", and the "evidence" of it are all phenomena experienced and understood by us. That means they all "exist", to us, relative to our limited capacity to experience and understand. What and how they might "exist" beyond the reach of our limited experience and understanding us unknown to us, because these aspects of their presumed existence are not within our purview. Thus, this "objective reality" of which you speak, and in which you clearly 'believe', is actually and always beyond your grasp.

Much like "God" is to the theist.
This sounds as though you are claiming there is more to objective reality than we can readily percieve and or understand.
Personally, I thought that was a given....

In fact, I will even go so far as to say that in my opinion much of what is accepted as "objective" reality is actually subjective.
 
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mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Yes.


Except all you seem to be saying in post #2 is that you believe there is some thing(s) science cannot test and or measure.
I thought that was a given...

No, it is a technicality from philosophy. You don't have to believe in objective reality to do science. I do believe in it, but understand how it is possible to use another basis than methodological naturalism and the belief in objective reality, which is a part of methodological naturalism.
 

McBell

Resident Sourpuss
No, it is a technicality from philosophy. You don't have to believe in objective reality to do science. I do believe in it, but understand how it is possible to use another basis than methodological naturalism and the belief in objective reality, which is a part of methodological naturalism.
Okay
Now it makes sense.

Thank you.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
This sounds as though you are claiming there is more to objective reality than we can readily perceive and or understand.
Personally, I thought that was a given....
Most humans have great difficulty understanding that what they perceive as reality beyond themselves (objective reality) is an imaginary ideal.

What I am saying is that there is subjective reality (the one we experience and claim to "know") and there is the inexplicable unknown, beyond our purview. There is no "objective reality" as it is commonly understood.
In fact, I will even go so far as to say that in my opinion much of what is accepted as "objective" reality is actually subjective.
All of it is, yes, ... 'objectivity' is a subjective ideal, not a reality in any way we can know. (Very similar to 'God'.)
 

SilverAngel

Member
Must we believe in an 'objective reality' to do science?

For the purposes of absolutely ensuring a fruitful and beneficial discussion will be had by all, let us define 'objective reality' as "The metaphysical claim that there exists a reality independent of any mind and/or conscious awareness." That is basically a fancy way of saying, "There exists a non-subjective reality."

Please note the word 'metaphysical'. That is merely a nod to the inescapable fact that any and all claims there is an objective reality are essentially metaphysical claims. If you do not understand why that is so, please be so kind as to read up on the subject before you muck up this thread. You can find a dangerously thrilling discussion of the topic here: Objectivity.​

HINT (For those who like hints): For methodological reasons, metaphysics lies beyond the scope of the sciences. Emphasis on the word "methodological". But why? Roughly put, to establish 'scientific truths' (i.e. reliable facts and hypotheses), one must use both reason (logic) and empirical observation. But one cannot, by definition, empirically observe a non-empirical entity, such as a metaphysical entity. Hence, one cannot bring science to bear on metaphysical claims.

Comments? Questions? Subpoenas?

Good luck!






All one needs to do science is a desire to have an answer
 

gnostic

The Lost One
But the test will not determine a theory right or wrong, as any scientist will attest. It will only tell us if the theory functions within the parameters of the experiment we devised to test it. Because that's all the experiment can ever test: relative function. Relative function. And relative function does not equate to objective truth. Which is the gigantic misconception that a great many modern humans have fallen into.
There would only be true, if you only confine and rely on experiments in the lab, alone.

Ideally you would seek evidence inside the lab (eg experiments) and outside of lab (seeking evidence and answers out in the fields), where scientist don’t have much control of what they may find.

If you do both (independently of each other), then you would cover more ground, in finding objective answer to reality.

You are forgetting that testing in Scientific Method isn’t just about finding evidence that validate a model (eg hypothesis or current theory), it is also about seeking evidence that will REFUTE model.

That what objective testings about, allowing the evidence to refute or verify the model, by the statistical number of evidence FOR or AGAINST the model.

I would agree with you to scientist being “biased”, if he or she only accept evidence that agree with his or her formulate model, because he or she wouldn’t be doing science.

Real objective TESTING in Scientific Method - is relying on empirical OBSERVATION and EVIDENCE that will either validate or invalidate the model, and not on scientist’s preference for his model.

These observations, evidence and data relied in testing determine what model is probable or improbable, giving the objective needed to select the best probable and possible model.

And good scientific theory is one that are being continuously tested, even after it has been accepted.

Example, the theory of Evolution, first began in the mid-19th century with both Charles Darwin and Alfred Russel Wallace formulating their own evolutionary framework or mechanism - Natural Selection - not only through their works universities and museums, but also through evidence observe during extensive fieldwork, eg Darwin in South America, Galapagos, and the Pacific, Wallace in the Amazon and the Malay Archipelago.

The research and testing didn’t stop with Darwin’s On Origin, Descent of Man and other works, but other biologists managed to combine Evolution with the genetics of Gregor Mendel during the early 20th century. Other framework of mechanisms in the 20th century, eg Mutations, Genetic Drift, Gene Flow and Genetic Hitchhiking would expand the theory, with testing for each ones, with new techniques to test, eg DNA, the genome project.

Not only new species were found, extinct species have been discovered. Evolution expanded beyond Darwin’s rudimentary hypothesis, evidence and testings allow for correction and updates.

That’s what good scientific theories are, they are continually expanded, corrected, modified and tested, on the basis of observable and verifiable evidence and data, by as many scientists contributing to the theories.

They have done with medicine, astronomy, gravitation (eg Newtonian, Relativity), EM, Quantum Theory, Particle Physics, etc.

It is called progress. You don’t rely on single evidence or single discovery, but on multiple evidence which could change any one of these fields of studies.

Religions and philosophies on the other hand, often failed because they are unwilling to objectively test what they believe or assume.

It is why I think metaphysics is outdated and overrated philosophy in the 21st century. I am not denying metaphysics have some merits in the past and present, but it doesn’t provide the necessary objectiveness found in Methodological Naturalism.
 
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