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Muslims Only: Quran is understandable without Hadith

safdar.dushantappeh

simpleislam.weebly.com
I happened to meet some Muslims who believed that Quran is not an understandable book and we need Hadith to understand what Quran says. This article argues the opposite. I appreciate if you could share your feedback about the presented arguments. I am also pasting here the article's introduction.

Thanks
Safdar

Quran is understandable without Hadith

Quran according to itself is the miracle of the God; and a miracle by definition must be verifiable by people who witness it. Quran invites us to verify this claim by trying to bring a chapter like one of the Quran's.

And if you are in doubt concerning what We have sent down to Our servant, then bring a Surah like it, and invoke your helpers besides Allah, if you are truthful. (2:23)

The belief that Quran as the book that we are reading is the same as the divine message that was revealed long time ago, thus, does not require trusting the intermediary individuals along the history: each Muslim in any century can read the text and decide whether she finds it miraculous or not (Refer to Appendix I for further discussion).

Quran is revealed to be a reminder for all mankind:

You do not ask them any reward for it: it is just a reminder for all the nations. (12:104)

But how a message could be a reminder if it is not in an understandable form. And Quran is indeed simple and understandable by anyone:

Certainly We have made the Quran simple for the sake of admonishment. So is there anyone who will be admonished? (54:17)

Being comprehensible does not contradict with including unspecified names, quantities, etc. For example Quran mentioned the number of some particular keepers as 19 and explains that the story behind the number is intentionally left aside:

There are nineteen [keepers] over it. (74:30) We have assigned only angels as keepers of the Fire, and We have made their number merely a stumbling block for the faithless, and so that those who were given the Book may be reassured, and the faithful may increase in [their] faith, and so that those who were given the Book and the faithful may not be in doubt, and so that the faithless and those in whose hearts is a sickness may say, ‘What did Allah mean by this description?’ Thus does Allah lead astray whomever He wishes and guides whomever He wishes. No one knows the hosts of your Lord except Him, and it is just an admonition for all humans. (74:31)

Or as Quran explains it also includes some few ambiguous verses to test the ones who have sickness in their hearts:

It is He Who has revealed the Book to you. Some of its verses are absolutely clear and lucid, and these are the core of the Book. Others are ambiguous. Those in whose hearts there is perversity, always go about the part which is ambiguous, seeking mischief and seeking to arrive at its meaning arbitrarily, although none knows their true meaning except Allah. On the contrary, those firmly rooted in knowledge say: 'We believe in it; it is all from our Lord alone.' No one derives true admonition from anything except the men of understanding. (3:7)

Claim: Quran is not understandable without Hadith!
We explained above that Quran is a miraculous message that is independently verifiable (no need for Hadith to prove it) and independently understandable by the masses (no need for Hadith to explain it).
Hadith, on the other hand, is just a collection of sentences attributed to the prophet and is hence essentially part of the history; and the reliability of the details of the history is always questionable. To trust Hadith, one has to trust the honesty of the people who have carried them through the past centuries, and also to trust the skills of the Hadith historians, also known as religious Elders or scholars. Some Hadith-believers however not only use Hadith as a medium that explains the tradition, but also go way further and call Quran incomprehensible and introduce Hadith as the key to explain it in an understandable way. This has scared many Muslims from directly reading Quran without a Hadith-based interpretation offered by scholars.

This is an outrageous claim that disrespects Quran as the miracle of the God; this claim essentially implies that the God was unable to reveal an understandable book and we need to fix this flaw by attaching Hadith to it! Not only this outrageous claim is against common sense but as we show in the following it also contradicts with Quran as well as with Hadith. In this article we present this claim and show that it is in clear contradiction with Quran as well as with Hadith.
 

mojtaba

Active Member
According to Holy Quran, we must refer our quarrels about anything to Allah and also the Apostle.

Allah says in Quran,
Chapter 59
O you who have faith! Obey Allah and obey the Apostle and those vested with authority among you. And if you dispute concerning anything, refer it to Allah and the Apostle, if you have faith in Allah and the Last Day. That is better and more favourable in outcome.

Indeed, reference to Allah means that we decide according to the Holy Quran, which is indeed a revelation from Allah, while reference to the Apostle(sawaws) means that we follow his Sunnah, which is also from Allah and is according to the revelation from Allah and is original interpretation of Holy Quran.

Allah has said about His Messenger,
Sura An-Najm
Bismillahi-Rrahmani-Rrahim
By the star when it sets: (1) your companion( Prophet Muhammad ) has neither gone astray, nor amiss. (2) Nor does he speak out of [his own] desire: (3) it is just a revelation that is revealed [to him], (4)taught him by one of great powers, (5)

Also He says,
And We have sent down the reminder to you( O Muhammad ), so that you may clarify for the people that which has been sent down to them, so that they may reflect.

So, the original interpreter of Holy Quran is Prophet Muhammad(sawaws)[, so that you may clarify for the people that which has been sent down to them ] and we must obey both Quran and the Sunnah of Allah's Apostle[, if you dispute concerning anything, refer it to Allah and the Apostle ], which are both the revelation from Allah.

In addition, Allah has said that we must hold fast to Allah's cord, and also He has siad that this cord are both the verses of Quran and also His Messenger, not only Holy Quran.

3:103
Hold fast, all together, to Allah’s cord, and do not be divided [into sects].

3:101
And how would you be faithless while the verses of Allah are recited to you and His Apostle is in your midst? Whoever takes recourse in Allah is certainly guided to a straight path.

These are some of my evidences from Holy Quran for what I believe in.

Dumtum fi Ri'ayatillah!
 
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DawudTalut

Peace be upon you.
I happened to meet some Muslims who believed that Quran is not an understandable book and we need Hadith to understand what Quran says. This article argues the opposite. I appreciate if you could share your feedback about the presented arguments. I am also pasting here the article's introduction.

Thanks
Safdar
Peace be on you.
Quran, Sunnah and Hadith: Quran is Judge. Two latter help understand Quran better for better following Holy Prophet (s.a.w.)

033-022.png

[33:22]
Verily you have in the Prophet of Allah an excellent model, for him who fears Allah and the Last Day and who remembers Allah much.
 
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Shia Islam

Quran and Ahlul-Bayt a.s.
Premium Member
I happened to meet some Muslims who believed that Quran is not an understandable book and we need Hadith to understand what Quran says. This article argues the opposite. I appreciate if you could share your feedback about the presented arguments. I am also pasting here the article's introduction.

Thanks
Safdar


1.The Quran itself says that it its verses are not of one type when it comes to the understandability:

"It is He who has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book; in it are verses [that are] precise – they are the foundation of the Book – and others unspecific.
هو الذي أنزل عليك الكتاب منه آيات محكمات هن أم الكتاب وأخر متشابهات
" Quran

2. The prophet (S) explained that he and his successors (Ahlulbayt) are the ones who have the ability to explain the Quran.

3. The real life shows that the Quran is not a book that can be explained by other than the prophet and Ahlulbayt. As we have many many books claim to explain the Quran. These books don't agree on the intended meanings of many and many of the verses.

4. We have many Islamic sects and groups. All of them claim to base their beliefs on the Quran.

5. Te language of the Quran is very General. It tends in many places not to talk about the details. Even the details of how to pray, how to fast etc. All of these are not given in the Quran.

6. The Quran lead us to refer to the prophet and AhlulBayt.

7. We don't claim that when an ordinary person reads the Quran he will not understand the clear verses and will benefit from his reading. However, without following Ahlulbayt, he will not be guided. Keep in mind the Bin Laden and the leader of ISIL, both of them read the Quran.
 

safdar.dushantappeh

simpleislam.weebly.com
According to Holy Quran, we must refer our quarrels about anything to Allah and also the Apostle.

Allah says in Quran,
Chapter 59
O you who have faith! Obey Allah and obey the Apostle and those vested with authority among you. And if you dispute concerning anything, refer it to Allah and the Apostle, if you have faith in Allah and the Last Day. That is better and more favourable in outcome.


Indeed, reference to Allah means that we decide according to the Holy Quran, which is indeed a revelation from Allah, while reference to the Apostle(sawaws) means that we follow his Sunnah, which is also from Allah and is according to the revelation from Allah and is original interpretation of Holy Quran.

Mojtaba, the topic of this thread is not whether Hadith is part of Islam or not. We indeed have discussed it in detail already in this forum: http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/islam-without-hadith.37333/page-2

The topic of this thread is whether the text of Quran specifically understandable without Hadith or not. So you might be a Hadith-believer and yet do not believe that Quran needs Hadith to be understandable.

Also He says,
And We have sent down the reminder to you( O Muhammad ), so that you may clarify for the people that which has been sent down to them, so that they may reflect.

So, the original interpreter of Holy Quran is Prophet Muhammad(sawaws)[, so that you may clarify for the people that which has been sent down to them ] and we must obey both Quran and the Sunnah of Allah's Apostle[, if you dispute concerning anything, refer it to Allah and the Apostle ], which are both the revelation from Allah.

This verse is already analyzed in the article! Perhaps you still have not got a chance to read the article http://simpleislam.weebly.com/quran The article clarifies the translation, which leads to a different interpretation.
 

safdar.dushantappeh

simpleislam.weebly.com
Peace be on you.
Quran, Sunnah and Hadith: Quran is Judge. Two latter helps understand Quran better for better following Holy Prophet (s.a.w.)

033-022.png

[33:22]
Verily you have in the Prophet of Allah an excellent model, for him who fears Allah and the Last Day and who remembers Allah much.

Dawud,

I do understand your position in believing in Hadith. However you could be a Hadith-believer and yet do not call Quran incomprehensible without Hadith. This is what the article discusses: http://simpleislam.weebly.com/quran
 

safdar.dushantappeh

simpleislam.weebly.com
1.The Quran itself says that it its verses are not of one type when it comes to the understandability:

"It is He who has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book; in it are verses [that are] precise – they are the foundation of the Book – and others unspecific.
هو الذي أنزل عليك الكتاب منه آيات محكمات هن أم الكتاب وأخر متشابهات
" Quran

Shia Islam,

The fact that Quran has some intentionally ambiguous verses is not in contradiction of Quran being understandable as a whole. They are put there with a purpose.

فَأَمَّا الَّذِينَ فِي قُلُوبِهِمْ زَيْغٌ فَيَتَّبِعُونَ مَا تَشَابَهَ مِنْهُ ابْتِغَاءَ الْفِتْنَةِ وَابْتِغَاءَ تَأْوِيلِهِ

It is not a flaw that you want to "fix it" by Hadith!

The real life shows that the Quran is not a book that can be explained by other than the prophet and Ahlulbayt

I do not know about your "real" life but my real life showed exactly the opposite.

5. Te language of the Quran is very General. It tends in many places not to talk about the details. Even the details of how to pray, how to fast etc. All of these are not given in the Quran.

It is find if you understand religion as a package full of details and you assume that this is the details that is the key to salvation! BUT this still does not make the text (without those details) incomprehensible! For some reason you think those details are missing and you seek Hadith as the solution but this still does not impact Quran incomprehensible.
 

mojtaba

Active Member
Ok, let us explore the article of OP.

1.It says that Hadith-believers believe that Quran is non-understandable.

This claim is not generally correct.
We believe that the principles of Quran are clear and Allah has used many manners, including, reason, example, etc. to prove them. The principles of Quran are,
1.At-Tawhid( monotheism ). This is the most importat one.
2.Nobowwah( the sending of Prophets by Allah ).
3.Ma'ad( returning to Allah in the Day of Resurrection).

These principles of Quran are clear and anyone reading it, can see them throughout the Quran. Indeed, these are the clear messeges of Quran to all the people, including Muslims and especially non-Muslims who want to study about Islamic Worldview.

But, there are other principles in Quran which are lower than those principles in importance and are in the next priority, which are indeed for those who have accepted those first principles and have entered to the Islam. They are the obligation of Salah, Zakah, Fasting, Hajj, and so on. Yes, their existence and obligation in Islamic Laws, and some of their details are in Quran, but the explanation of all of their details was one of the most important duties of Prophet Muhammad(sawaws). Hence, Allah has determined both Quran and the Apostle as our religious references and has ordered us to hold fast to Allah's cord and has said that this cord is both Quran and Apostle, not only Quran.

3:103
Hold fast, all together, to Allah’s cord, and do not be divided [into sects].

3:101
And how would you be faithless while the verses of Allah are recited to you and His Apostle is in your midst?Whoever takes recourse in Allah iscertainly guided to a straight path.

Allah( Ta'ala ) says,
4:59
'If you(, O believers, ) dispute concerning anything, refer it to Allah and the Apostle, if you have faith in Allah and the Last Day. That is better and more favourable in outcome'

Indeed, reference to Allah means that we decide according to the Holy Quran, which is indeed a revelation from Allah, while reference to the Apostle(sawaws) means that we must follow his sayings and Sunnah, which is also a revelation from Allah.( See my previous post for more details. )

So, Quran is clear in its miraculous principles, and anyone can read it and become awar of these principles.
But because saying of all the details in a Book which should concern on the important principles is not a rational manner, Allah ordered His Apostle to explain the principles in more details and He has then ordered us to follow both Quran and Apostle( peace be upon him and his pure progeny ).

Continued...
 
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Shia Islam

Quran and Ahlul-Bayt a.s.
Premium Member
Shia Islam,

The fact that Quran has some intentionally ambiguous verses is not in contradiction of Quran being understandable as a whole. They are put there with a purpose.

فَأَمَّا الَّذِينَ فِي قُلُوبِهِمْ زَيْغٌ فَيَتَّبِعُونَ مَا تَشَابَهَ مِنْهُ ابْتِغَاءَ الْفِتْنَةِ وَابْتِغَاءَ تَأْوِيلِهِ

It is not a flaw that you want to "fix it" by Hadith!

...

.

Ambiguous verses are not marked or colored with a different color..
A verse that you may think of as a straightforwardly clear verse may be more ambiguous than you have thought..

It is find if you understand religion as a package full of details and you assume that this is the details that is the key to salvation! BUT this still does not make the text (without those details) incomprehensible! For some reason you think those details are missing and you seek Hadith as the solution but this still does not impact Quran incomprehensible.

The details show what is the real subjects of the related verses...

You may be a Quranist...
If you are, then let me say that this idea of being Quranist is almost as old as Islam..
however Muslims find it very clearly against the undeniable teachings of Islam to the extent that it has almost find no followers...

Even now, Muslims don't take this Idea seriously..
 

Pastek

Sunni muslim
You can understand the Quran without the hadiths but you may not understand some verses well and then with the explanation of the hadiths you say later "ah ok i thought it means another thing" or "that's why i didn't understand why he said this and that !".

Some exemples :

1- Surah 68

68.10 And do not obey every worthless habitual swearer
68.11 [And] scorner, going about with malicious gossip -
68.12 A preventer of good, transgressing and sinful,
68.13 Cruel, moreover, and an illegitimate pretender.


In some versions or other languages it's translated with the word "*******" (illigetimate).
If you don't have the hadiths you don't have the meaning of this verse.

The word zanim is used to describe a person of illegitimate birth, who does not, in fact, belong to a family but has joined it.
Sa`id bin Jubair and Sha`bi say that this word is used for a person who is notorious among the people for his evildoing.

The views of the commentators with regard to the person who has been described in these verses are different.
Some one says it was Walid bin Mughirah; another one says it was Aswad bin `Abd-i Yaghuth, and still another has applied this description to Akhnas bin Shurayq, and some other people have pointed to some other persons.
But the Qur'an has only described his attributes without naming him. This shows that in Makkah the man concerned was so notorious for his such qualities that there was no need to name him definitely. Hearing his description every person could understand who was being referred to.


http://englishtafsir.com/Quran/68/index.html

2-Surah 74

74.11 Leave Me with the one I created alone
74.12 And to whom I granted extensive wealth
74.13 And children present [with him]
74.14 And spread [everything] before him, easing [his life].
74.15 Then he desires that I should add more.
74.16 No! Indeed, he has been toward Our verses obstinate.

So here Allah's verse is about a specific person again while reading it we may think it's about anyone who denies the Quran after saying it was from Allah.

The person who is mentioned in this discussion is Al-Walid bin Al-Mughirah Al-Makhzumi.
(...) What a great thing this is that Ibn Abi Kabshah is saying. I swear by Allah that it is not poetry, nor magic, nor the prattling of insanity. Verily, his speech is from the Words of Allah!'


So when a group of the Quraysh heard this they gathered and said, `By Allah, if Al-Walid converts (to Islam) all of the Quraysh will convert.'
When Abu Jahl bin Hisham heard this he said, `By Allah, I will deal with him for you.' (...)

Al-Walid then said, `Is this what my tribe is saying Nay, by Allah, I am not seeking to be close to Ibn Abi Quhafah, nor `Umar, nor Ibn Abi Kabshah. And his speech is only inherited magic of old.' So Allah revealed to His Messenger.


http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1438&Itemid=130

Walid bin mugaira
said that we should not contradict like some of us saying he is a liar, some says he is a magician; some says he is a soothsayer etc.
We have to have the unified opinion in order to go to the people and warn them.
Some of them in the meeting decided ‘Sooth sayer’ He (walid) responded NO, he is not soothsayer, I have seen sooth sayer he doesn’t engaged in the rhymes mumbling and doggerel they used – People are not going to believe you, if you say he is a soothsayer.

They said let say he is crazy, he (walid bin mugaira) replied he is not crazy , we have seen and known those who are crazy . He has none of their choking, eradicate movement and mumbling . He does not show the sign of the people of sane or obsess by JIN.
Then they said we all will claim that he is a poet. , He (walid bin muqaira) said no he is not a poet , we know poetry and all its metrical forms and what he speak is not poetry . (Walid bin muqaira, in another narration said that I am the expert among you in poetry, i know all of the poems and Quran is not Poetry)

Then he said lets claim that he is a sorcerer, he said no ‘He is not a sorcerer’ we have seen sorcerer and their magic, what he is doing is not magic.

Then later they all finally accepted to say that he is a sorcerer (...)The closes thing for you to say is ‘this man is a sorcerer (...)

http://hadithway.com/Mecca09.html

There's many surahs i can give as exemples that whe don't fully understand.
It may be just details for you but in some other surahs it's needed. Like for exemple the Queen of Saba or when the Prophet David was afraid when people came to his house and then he gave a quick judgement. etc
 

safdar.dushantappeh

simpleislam.weebly.com
This claim is not generally correct.
We believe that the principles of Quran are clear
...
But, there are other principles in Quran which are lower than those principles in importance ... but the explanation of all of their details was one of the most important duties of Prophet Muhammad(sawaws).

Thanks Mojtaba. It seems that we have the same position in this regard: both of us believe that Quran is understandable without Hadith. However you think there are details that critical for being a Muslim and yet not covered by Quran and seek those details in Hadith.

As I said before the topic of this thread is not to discuss whether Hadith is part of Islam or not, it is rather whether the Quran's text is in understandable form by itself or not, which you seem to agree with me that it is understandable.

4:59
'If you(, O believers, ) dispute concerning anything, refer it to Allah and the Apostle, if you have faith in Allah and the Last Day. That is better and more favourable in outcome'

Indeed, reference to Allah means that we decide according to the Holy Quran, which is indeed a revelation from Allah, while reference to the Apostle(sawaws) means that we must follow his sayings and Sunnah, which is also a revelation from Allah.( See my previous post for more details. )

This is not related to the topic of this thread. But since you mentioned that let me just say that there exist other interpretations of this verse, which can be found here: http://simpleislam.weebly.com/criticisms-en
 

safdar.dushantappeh

simpleislam.weebly.com
Ambiguous verses are not marked or colored with a different color..
A verse that you may think of as a straightforwardly clear verse may be more ambiguous than you have thought..

I don't remember saying that they are marked and I am not sure why it is important in this discussion. But after 1400 years it is not hard to see on which verses the interpretations disagree the most.

The details show what is the real subjects of the related verses...

Where does that come from? From what part of Quran you concluded that religion is about these details?

Moreover do you honestly believe that Quran is the miracle of the God, a book that no man could ever bring a chapter like it, and yet the God failed to mention the "real subjects" in the book and filled it with "unreal subjects"?!!!!!

however Muslims find it very clearly against the undeniable teachings of Islam to the extent that it has almost find no followers...
Even now, Muslims don't take this Idea seriously..

What we are doing here is a theological discussion and our source of truth is Quran. We are not holding a democratic election to see which ideas has more fans and gets the most votes!
 

safdar.dushantappeh

simpleislam.weebly.com
Thanks Pastek. These are good examples for this discussion. Lets discuss them one by one. But before that lets review some facts:
  1. We believe that Quran is the miracle of the God, meant to be a message read by people who live thousands of years after (like us)
  2. Saying that the God somehow missed to include some details in the book and after many years the book has become incomprehensible to us is in contradiction with the belief above.
  3. Discussion about the meaning of the words is an active science and it is advancing over the time. It is true that Arabs in 14th century might use the words differently that Quran was using them. However as the miracle of the God the best source of understand the meaning of the words is Quran itself. In majority of the cases one can gain an understanding of the word by looking at the similar usages in the rest of Quran. I suggest this book "God and Man in the Quran" that defines a scientific approach to this with many practical examples from Quran (you should be able to find pdf as well)
  4. If we believe that Quran is a miracle of the God we cannot name the details that we would have liked to see in the book but we do not find them as "flaws" or "missing details". On the contrary as a believer we should understand that there must have been a good reason for such details not being covered in the book and discuss them case by case. A good example is number 19 in the verse 74:30 and as the article explains Quran itself says in length that the details and story behind the number 19 is intentionally not covered in the book and we should be able to get the main message without being obsessed with such details.

Some exemples :
68.13 Cruel, moreover, and an illegitimate pretender.

In some versions or other languages it's translated with the word "*******" (illigetimate).
If you don't have the hadiths you don't have the meaning of this verse.
...
Hearing his description every person could understand who was being referred to.

You might be right that there are disputes between the scholar about the actual meaning of the word in this verse. And we might end up disagreed of whether the meaning is clear from the rest of Quran. In that case I would put it in the category of minor "ambiguous" parts and put my focus on the rest of the verses which are the majority of the book:

وَالرَّاسِخُونَ فِي الْعِلْمِ يَقُولُونَ آمَنَّا بِهِ كُلٌّ مِّنْ عِندِ رَبِّنَا

That aside it seems that your intention is to clarify who is exactly this individual that the verse is referring to. If that is the case, I would say the mistake is to focus on the individual (whose name is intentionally omitted from the book) and getting distracted from the qualities with which the individual was described, which were kind of the details that the God decided as important and necessary to be included in his miraculous book.

74.11 Leave Me with the one I created alone
So here Allah's verse is about a specific person again while reading it we may think it's about anyone who denies the Quran after saying it was from Allah.

The person who is mentioned in this discussion is Al-Walid bin Al-Mughirah Al-Makhzumi.

Again in this verse my understanding is that the name of the individual was not the important detail to be included in the book; instead the virtues by which the individual is described are the important details that we should ponder upon.
 

Shia Islam

Quran and Ahlul-Bayt a.s.
Premium Member
But after 1400 years it is not hard to see on which verses the interpretations disagree the most.
So you admit that there are:
1. verses the interpretations disagree the most.
2. Verses interpretations disagree (the other than) the most.

If you add these two groups you will have huge number of verses.

Then it is not only about the numbers.
Some of these verses are related to the most important part of Islam.

Also, the details of the religion is not unimportant...
You can have many different religions claiming to base their creeds on the Quran...

By refusing the Hadith you are in reality refusing the Quran and Islam...
Instead of debating for the sake of debate..Just imagine what excuses will you give to Allah for refusing the Commands of his prophet (s)..
 
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