Muslims and Jews: Are Christians Idolators?

[Baydwin]

In your opinion, are they idol worshippers?

 

[.lava]

In your opinion, are they idol worshippers?

hi i think we can not generalize. besides, the real idol is ego of people and we all have it. IMO it is utterly false to say there are no Muslims, Jews or Christians who could be classified as "idol worshippers"

.

 

[fallingblood]

A very interesting question. With the varying definitions of idol, it could definitely be stated that Christians are idol worshippers. But generalizing, such as I did, does this question no justification.

I think each sect of Christianity would have to be looked at to have a definite answer. The church I grew up in claimed that every other sect of Christianity were idol worshippers, and they stressed even more so of the Catholics.

Earlier on in my life, I was also a practicing Muslim. In discussions, it was brought up that Christians were idol worshippers, as well as many other horrible things. Now, from the discussions that I was involved in, Muslims took both sides. What I find interesting is that at least in my discussions, I saw that, once again, the Catholics were accused more so than other denominations.

Personally, I would not accuse them of idol worship per se.

 

[arimoff]

In your opinion, are they idol worshippers?

How can you be monotheistic if you believe that G-D has a son?

 

[Apollonius]

How can you be religious if you cannot believe that God should have a son?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

In your opinion, are they idol worshippers?

Why the effort to provoke discord? It's a rather petty voyeurism.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

I would think that the ones who believe in the Trinity would be classified as idolotors, in Islamic view anyway- former Muslim

 

[arimoff]

How can you be religious if you cannot believe that God should have a son?

:areyoucra

 

[Rainbow Mage]

Well the way Christians believe god has a son makes no sense. They say that god has a son, yet the son is both fully god and fully man. How does that work? Wouldn't that mean he was half and half?

 

[fallingblood]

Well the way Christians believe god has a son makes no sense. They say that god has a son, yet the son is both fully god and fully man. How does that work? Wouldn't that mean he was half and half?

They believe that Jesus is God incarnate. So there belief may be better described as monism.

Their beliefs (I'm generalizing here, as not all sects believe the same way) basically state that Jesus and God are the same being, just different forms of that being.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

In your opinion, are they idol worshippers?

I recall Jesus asking a person, "Why call me good? There is only one good, that is God".

This tells me that Jesus told people to focus on God and truth. In case they began to think Jesus was something different than God and began to worship Jesus as something separate.

It reminds me of the time the people demanded a King, and God gave them kings. The people simply didn't understand they were going to have authority one way or another, so instead of just worship to God they felt the need to complicate matters with kings.

I think Jesus was trying to avoid that with his reply.

 

[Baydwin]

Why the effort to provoke discord?

Not my intention, just curious. Hence my placing this in the Same Faith Debates section, so I could get Muslim/Jewish views only and it wouldn't start an interfaith argument. Not that people seem to be paying any attention to the forum heading though.

It's a rather petty voyeurism.

You saw what you wanted to see, not what I intended.

 

[Evee]

I agree that it's impossible to really get a general answer. I'd have to say that there's definite potential in the Trinity doctrine for idol worship, especially in those churches that have lots of statues and chapels dedicated to saints. I think the practice of praying "in Jesus's name" is DEFINITELY idol worship UNLESS the person doing it is fully commited to the idea of Jesus being G-d. On the one hand, I can't think of a circumstance in which kneeling before a statue of Mary, lighting a candle and praying to/through her to be anything BUT having another god before G-d. But on the other, there are churches which don't have any images at all and whose doctrine affirms that they believe G-d to be three-in-ONE. That doesn't seem idolatrous to me.
In short: there's a lot more room for idolatry in Christian practices, but there are so many different practices that can be called "Christian" that I couldn't say definitively that Christianity is idolatry.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

Well what do we call original Christianity though? You can say that Protestants aren't idolotrous, but are they really the original Christians? I would argue that Christianity originally is idolotrous in the sense that Jews and Muslims use the word "idolotry". Original Christianity, as we have it, being Catholic or Eastern Orthodox.

 

[Baydwin]

...there are churches which don't have any images at all and whose doctrine affirms that they believe G-d to be three-in-ONE. That doesn't seem idolatrous to me.

That's very interesting, thank you for commenting. And thanks to .lava and the rest of the Muslims and Jews who have commented too.

I find your post particularily enlightening Evee. I'll be honest I expected the majority if people to simply say that they were idolatrous, but to have a Jewish person say that so long as they genuinely see Jesus as G-d it is not idolatry, well, it's forced me to flush away a lot of my preconceptions.

 

[Zardoz]

Gentiles are allowed to have intermediaries, so the Christian trinity and/or incarnationist theologies are not idolatry. 'G-d the Father' is unchallenged in this regard. So long as there is no actual physical object (a statue for example) being treated as an Idol, (offerings being made to it) then I'd say the answer is no.

It's not OK for a Jew to have an intermediary, however, so I would be an Idolater if I prayed to Yeshua.

 

[Evee]

... I'll be honest I expected the majority if people to simply say that they were idolatrous, but to have a Jewish person say that so long as they genuinely see Jesus as G-d it is not idolatry, well, it's forced me to flush away a lot of my preconceptions.

Haha. I'm always glad to do my part in flushing away preconceptions, but I'm not sure it's entirely warranted in this case. I don't know how many others you'd find with views like mine. Judaism as I apply it can be a little bit wacky...
And although I can certainly understand a position (like Zardoz's) that praying through Jesus to G-d-the-Father is idolatrous, since it's through an intermediary, I see it more like this:
If I want to talk to you (in the real world), I WANT the message to get to your soul. For it to get there, though, it first has to go through your ears. Your ears are obviously a part of you, and a necessary one.
Some Christians think that to get a message to G-d, they have to go through Jesus, but Jesus is still a part of G-d (possibly also fully G-d?), and no more an intermediary than your ears.

 

[jtartar]

In your opinion, are they idol worshippers?

Baydwin,
Of course any person who calls himself a christian would say they are not idolaters, but are they???
The Holy Bible, from which all true Christians are supposed to get their doctrines, explains what an idolater is. It is a person who uses any form of anything, whether in heaven or on earth, as a symbol of his religion. Many people who CALL themselves Christian use symbols, such as the cross, statues of Mary, and others called Saints. Whether they want to believe it or not this IS idolatry. Just consider what God's word says, Ex 20:4,5, Deut 4:15-19, 1Cor 10:14-21, 1John 5:21.
In the early days of the Israelites the pagan nations hated them because they had no visible gods, Ps 115:1-8. The early Christians had no symbols of Christianity, it was after the great APOSTACY, when symbols were slowly accepted into the corrupted travesty of christianity.
Anyone who uses symbols to remind them of their religion, or for any other reason, in their worship, are Idolaters, whether they want to believe it or not.
True Christians today, do not use any symbols in their worship, just as the first century Christians did not.

 

[Zardoz]

...True Christians today, do not use any symbols in their worship, just as the first century Christians did not.

Symbols are a rather broad term. We're using symbols right now to communicate, eh?

The first Christians used the Ichthys (stylized fish) as a symbol. Such figures and geometric shapes such as the cross, star, or crescent, are not a problem.

 

[Levite]

I also don't think one can generalize. I think it depends on the dogmas of the particular Christian sect, and the personal theology of the Christian individual in question, and what their intention is in prayer and service. I think there is more potential for idolatry in trinitarian Christianity, and even more so in sects that espouse the veneration of saints, or Marianism. But even in those cases, it need not always be idolatrous in practice.

A number of our greatest rabbis have told us that Christianity is not idolatry when practiced by non-Jews, though all agree it is forbidden to Jews. So, I guess, my answer is, it depends.

How can you be religious if you cannot believe that God should have a son?

My inclination is to reply that it is remarkably easy. But my real answer is that I do believe God has sons. And daughters. Each one of us is a son or daughter of God. I just don't believe that the Source of All Creation needs to impregnate a woman to have children.