Much of the quran is based on the Torah, much of the bible is based on the Torah? Essentially the same books until JC shows up?
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Muslim views on Jesus
- Thread starter Prometheus85
- Start date
Much of the quran is based on the Torah, much of the bible is based on the Torah? Essentially the same books until JC shows up?
firedragon
Veteran Member
I didnt ask you earlier. I asked someone else, and you responded. I ask you now for you to understand the question.
And today not 25 and 100, you are wrong. There are around 300 or more number of God's in India alone. More.
And its completely irrelevant.
Thanks for the response. Cheers.
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firedragon
Veteran Member
What do you mean "much of the Bible is based on the Torah"? Can you elaborate on that a bit?
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
Prometheus85 said: ↑
I’ve also been told that Muslims don’t believe Jesus was the son of god so they reject Jesus.
Regards
I’ve also been told that Muslims don’t believe Jesus was the son of god so they reject Jesus.
It is correct.
Regards
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paarsurrey
Veteran Member
I agree with one here.
And there are said to be 32000+ denominations of Christians having different concepts of G-d.
Regards
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
If we look at ancient tribal middle eastern cultures, they all had different ideas of the Divine Council, some saw it as a pantheon of demigods, and some as archangels...
Muhammad tried to correct them to Monotheism, and instructs in the Quran to only worship the source of reality Allah, as it creates everything, therefore the angels, and prophets are all Allah's creations anyway.
Yeshua tried to correct the Jews back to El Elyon (God Most High), which is Ala ilah in Arabic.
The Jews no longer understood Yeshua Elohim's father is El (the Source of our reality)...
Take into account 'when Yeshua prayed, "Eli, Eli" (My God), some thought he spoke of Elijah' (Matthew 27:46-47), which shows people had already forgotten 'that El is not like the Elohim' (Isaiah 46:9 → Deuteronomy 32:7-9).
This is where people thought Yeshua was claiming himself to be God, as he said he fulfilled prophecy of being a Eloh (Divine Being).
The promise given is that those who are worthy will be call children of God (El) again...
Many Muslims I've spoken to, can accept we're all Allah's creation; so we can see it as all of our parent, like in code...
Yet when people start talking about someone being biologically a child of God, and God needing to be a human being to have sex with humans; Muslims defend that Allah is beyond the reality, that it creates.
The Quran makes clear we are not to make partners with Allah, Yeshua is the word of God & Messiah in the Quran, not some part of a Trinity.
The problem comes from John, Paul, and Simon building their Christian ministries on 'jesus' being the son of God, and as Yeshua pointed out straight after calling "Simon the stone (petros) satan, that he followed the ways of man more than God" (Matthew 16:13-23).
In my opinion.
I agree with what I have colored in magenta in the above post, please.
Regards
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
"I am calm, muslims worship the abrahamic god whether you like it or not. They consider jesus a holy prophet whether you like it or not, "
Regards
That is not asking me
I am not counting Hinduism now just the same way as i didnt count the 330: million or so hindu gods when i first mentioned it.
Why is it irrelevant? Because you want it to be. It is totally relevant to those who worship the different gods and it is totally relevant to your post that i answered.
firedragon
Veteran Member
Great.
Well you did ask in post #82 "You mean there are several Gods?"
Giving information is a free service that i offer ;-)
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
"any non-apocryphal gospel that says that"
I figure Quran/Islam/Muhammad didn't need and doesn't need any other scripture whether apocryphal or non-apocryphal or whatever for its truthful, it in itself is illumine, luminous and magnificent.
Regards
The OT (85% of the bible) is based on the Torah, the first 5 books of the bible are almost identical clones
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
"believe"
Repeated use of "believe" suggests that one holds a blindfaith, and won't listen to reason.
Regards
Jollybear
Hey
I gave quotes from jesus. Those quotes contradict what muslims believe. Jesus says in those qoutes that we must believe his version of who he is, not anyones elses version, that includes the muslim version.
Also it can be resolved by realizing who came first, christians or muslims? Christians. Thus there writtings should know who jesus is, not the muslims who came 500 years later.
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
Muslim views on Jesus: How to read Quran to understand it correctly
I hope it won't be off-topic.
Since there has been a lot of discussion on Quran from many angles from the friends in the forum I suggest that one has to adopt a proper measure to understand the truthful scripture Quran, if one is interested. It is not like reading a novel or a story-book.
One should be clear of any bias while reading Quran.
Kindly start studying Quran from the beginning to the end, then read it again please and have a note-book with you while intently reading it. One should write down the valid question/s arising in one’s mind very naturally; this is not prohibited.
If the context makes the questions clear or one realizes that one’s question is not valid; one could delete it and proceed further. This may take sometime of course; but it is worthwhile trying it, after all it is an oft quoted book of an important world religion.
I think it is not difficult to understand the verses by using a common sense approach which is generally helpful for understanding any book in the world.
A single verse without the text and the context could be sometimes or most of the time misleading.
One cannot correctly understand the meaning of a word unless one knows the whole sentence in which it has been used. The value of a sentence could be best understood in a passage, and of a passage is best understood in a chapter. The reference with the context is therefore most essential for a meaningful understanding.
This helps to understand the verses; hence Quran is self-explanatory.
Quran in the very beginning makes it known that it is a book for guidance to humanity to the righteous one's and as such it should be referred to in the ethical, moral and spiritual matters. Why persist to use it otherwise?
Another thing is that science is never final in anything; there is always a room for improvement in knowledge of science; nobody has closed yet the book of science; so why at all compare it with Quran.
Quran leaves the field of science open for search and research for the believers and the non-believers alike; it does not block science for investigation or oppose it.
Science does not have any absolute realities; it is a tool of human beings for physical advancements and with the available data it searches and researches till it matches with the nature; nature is the master correcter.
Nature existed when humans had virtually no knowledge of science; and science is subject to improvement as and when new data is obtained. It has no claims to perfectness.
It is therefore futile to look for any scientific mistakes in Quran; there is none there.
It provides guidance on ethical, moral and spiritual matters. Quran does not want that it should be believed only as a book of authority from an authority.
It provides the wisdom to a thing/commandment and reasonable arguments, in a way, that it is not a tedious book like the books of philosophy which are full with difficult terminology not understood by the common man. It mentions wisdom for the Philosophers, experts and the common people all at one and the same time; as it is guidance for everybody.
I think it is appropriate here to suggest an on-line website for studying the same:
The Holy Quran with English, Spanish, French, German, Urdu translation - Koran Online
It is true that Quran if read in the Arabic language a little loudly in a manner that it does not disturb others has its own spell-bound charm; that cannot be denied.
Nevertheless; its real charm is in its profound system of meaning conveyed in its message; one could benefit from it, in any language. Where-ever the translator has not been able to comprehend the meaning correctly, one could check the original Arabic word and find its etymology, available online.
I have personal experience of this; people borrow questions from unfriendly websites; but when referred to Quran, for the text and context, the questions become irrelevant and invalid.
I may add here that all translations, in fact, are commentaries as one could translate only to the extent one understands; if one does not understand fully one’s translation would be defective to that extent.
As is evident translations of Quran are not the real words of God; that is factual and reasonable; that does not mean that Quran should not be translated for understanding it.
When one has finished it, we can compare our notes with one another.
However there is no compulsion to read it, if one is happy not reading it, one may not read it.
Right, please
Regards
_____________
[54:18]وَ لَقَدۡ یَسَّرۡنَا الۡقُرۡاٰنَ لِلذِّکۡرِ فَہَلۡ مِنۡ مُّدَّکِرٍ ﴿۱۸﴾
And indeed We have made the Qur’an easy to understand and to remember. But is there anyone who would receive admonition?
The Holy Quran - Chapter: 54: Al-Qamar
I hope it won't be off-topic.
Since there has been a lot of discussion on Quran from many angles from the friends in the forum I suggest that one has to adopt a proper measure to understand the truthful scripture Quran, if one is interested. It is not like reading a novel or a story-book.
One should be clear of any bias while reading Quran.
Kindly start studying Quran from the beginning to the end, then read it again please and have a note-book with you while intently reading it. One should write down the valid question/s arising in one’s mind very naturally; this is not prohibited.
If the context makes the questions clear or one realizes that one’s question is not valid; one could delete it and proceed further. This may take sometime of course; but it is worthwhile trying it, after all it is an oft quoted book of an important world religion.
I think it is not difficult to understand the verses by using a common sense approach which is generally helpful for understanding any book in the world.
A single verse without the text and the context could be sometimes or most of the time misleading.
One cannot correctly understand the meaning of a word unless one knows the whole sentence in which it has been used. The value of a sentence could be best understood in a passage, and of a passage is best understood in a chapter. The reference with the context is therefore most essential for a meaningful understanding.
This helps to understand the verses; hence Quran is self-explanatory.
Quran in the very beginning makes it known that it is a book for guidance to humanity to the righteous one's and as such it should be referred to in the ethical, moral and spiritual matters. Why persist to use it otherwise?
Another thing is that science is never final in anything; there is always a room for improvement in knowledge of science; nobody has closed yet the book of science; so why at all compare it with Quran.
Quran leaves the field of science open for search and research for the believers and the non-believers alike; it does not block science for investigation or oppose it.
Science does not have any absolute realities; it is a tool of human beings for physical advancements and with the available data it searches and researches till it matches with the nature; nature is the master correcter.
Nature existed when humans had virtually no knowledge of science; and science is subject to improvement as and when new data is obtained. It has no claims to perfectness.
It is therefore futile to look for any scientific mistakes in Quran; there is none there.
It provides guidance on ethical, moral and spiritual matters. Quran does not want that it should be believed only as a book of authority from an authority.
It provides the wisdom to a thing/commandment and reasonable arguments, in a way, that it is not a tedious book like the books of philosophy which are full with difficult terminology not understood by the common man. It mentions wisdom for the Philosophers, experts and the common people all at one and the same time; as it is guidance for everybody.
I think it is appropriate here to suggest an on-line website for studying the same:
The Holy Quran with English, Spanish, French, German, Urdu translation - Koran Online
It is true that Quran if read in the Arabic language a little loudly in a manner that it does not disturb others has its own spell-bound charm; that cannot be denied.
Nevertheless; its real charm is in its profound system of meaning conveyed in its message; one could benefit from it, in any language. Where-ever the translator has not been able to comprehend the meaning correctly, one could check the original Arabic word and find its etymology, available online.
I have personal experience of this; people borrow questions from unfriendly websites; but when referred to Quran, for the text and context, the questions become irrelevant and invalid.
I may add here that all translations, in fact, are commentaries as one could translate only to the extent one understands; if one does not understand fully one’s translation would be defective to that extent.
As is evident translations of Quran are not the real words of God; that is factual and reasonable; that does not mean that Quran should not be translated for understanding it.
When one has finished it, we can compare our notes with one another.
However there is no compulsion to read it, if one is happy not reading it, one may not read it.
Right, please
Regards
_____________
[54:18]وَ لَقَدۡ یَسَّرۡنَا الۡقُرۡاٰنَ لِلذِّکۡرِ فَہَلۡ مِنۡ مُّدَّکِرٍ ﴿۱۸﴾
And indeed We have made the Qur’an easy to understand and to remember. But is there anyone who would receive admonition?
The Holy Quran - Chapter: 54: Al-Qamar
Last edited:
exchemist
Veteran Member
No, you gave quotes attributed to Jesus, according to various New Testament accounts. But muslims rely on other scripture.
If it came later, that does not automatically make it inferior. After all, Christians rely on the New Testament, which came long after the Old Testament of the Jews.
So we have three rival sources of scripture in the Abrahamic religions, don't we?
You seem unable to see how things may look from another person's point of view.
Augustus
…
The most (in)famous would be those associated with Inarah: Luxenburg, Lulling, etc. and other less radical revisionists.
More than this though, many scholars would also answer that it is unproven, rather than making a claim one way or the other.
firedragon
Veteran Member
Well. Lets not just say "other" and other vague comments brother. Be specific.
What is Luxenberg's thesis on the Quran?
Augustus
…
Nevo, Koren, Puin, etc.
Another school of thought starts with John Wansborough, and numerous others influenced by him. Patricia Crone, Guillaume Dye, etc.
It's not really that important as I was only noting that there are scholars who disagree and I'd already named some.
No doubt you are well aware of what it is