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Featured Muslim views on Jesus

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Prometheus85, Sep 15, 2019.

  1. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    Ok, so you have no argument and need to cherry pick my post to provide your idea of a comeback, cheers, bye
     
  2. David1967

    David1967 Well-Known Member
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    To be fair, even Christian denominations have disagreements on the nature of Jesus.
     
  3. Terry Sampson

    Terry Sampson Well-Known Member

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    Aye, .. My brother and I were talking about that the other day, in the context of our mutual conversation about nephew and nieces. [Note: our father was, for close to 60 years, a Missouri Synod Lutheran-ordained minister]. My brother and I reflected on "the essentials of our mutual notions of the nature of Jesus". My brother calls it: "the acid test", Jesus - crucified, entombed, resurrected, and ascended.
     
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  4. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    What you want is the Quran to speak just like the Bible.
     
  5. Terry Sampson

    Terry Sampson Well-Known Member

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    No, ... I don't.
     
  6. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    Then why would you ask the Quran to have similar genre?
     
  7. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    Its not Ala ilah. Maybe you made a typo error. However, its Al ilah.

    I really cant grasp why you would say "Yeshua Elohim" and also "Father is El" when Elohim is the plural of El.

    Elohim is the Plural of El.
     
  8. Terry Sampson

    Terry Sampson Well-Known Member

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    1. I am familiar with who YHWH personally speaks to in the Hebrew Scriptures and says: "I ... "
    2. In my admittedly limited reading of the Qur'an--until Pastek kindly presented me with a few citations--the angel Gabriel (I am told) tells Muhammad that Allah says: "We ..."
    3. I invited someone now on my "Ignore" list to ask a Muslim "and see if they can cite a verse from the Qur'an in which Allah spoke directly to a human being and said "I". I happen to find the differences in the way YHWH speaks to people in the Hebrew Scriptures and the way Allah speaks in the Qur'an interesting. It's as though, IMO, YHWH and Allah are two different Beings.
    4. So far, I have found that Allah spoke directly to Adam and Moses. I have only read some of the portions of the Qur'an which report that Allah spoke directly to Moses. I have not found those portions in which Allah spoke directly to Adam, probably because I haven't tried to find them ... yet.
    5. Above, loverofhumanity [a Baha'i believer] wrote: To become a Muslim one MUST also accept ... the Gospels and Torah.[/QUOTE] I responded with: "Something tells me that you're in for a big surprise." What do you think, given the probability that loverofhumanity has the current Hebrew and Christian Scriptures in mind when claiming that "To become a Muslim one MUST also accept the Gospels and Torah?
    6. BTW, you do realize that wizanda's collection of beliefs is the product of his/her personal creative efforts, don't you?
     
    #48 Terry Sampson, Sep 16, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2019
  9. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    Elim is plural of El; Eloh is a Divine Being in Ancient Hebrew, and Elohim plural Divine Beings or the Divine Council.

    When a H is added it means breathed by God, like Abram became Abraham, and Sara became Sarah when blessed by God.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
  10. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    Err. Well. Your prerogative.
     
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  11. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    Thanks for an objective post. Appreciate that.

    First thing you must understand brother is that the Quran is written in Arabic. It doesn't work the way English does. Ill give you an example. Thawba means repentance. Now if you wish to say "I will take/accept repentance" you dont use a letter like "I". You say "Aathoobu".

    "Except those who repent and amend/reform and clarify; for those I will accept their repentance, for I am the One who accepts repentance, the Merciful." - 2:160

    You are not a Muslim. So you will not read the Quran from a devotional point of view. And thats great. So read it from your personal point of view. Just to understand the genre at least.

    Anyway, any philologist reading the Quran will affirm that its written by one person. Ask a palaeographer or a scholar in Classical Arabic. The whole book is written by one person. Forget about Gods word etc for the moment. So when you read it you have to understand the point of view of the writer, and the reader. If it was Muhammed (as an example only) who wrote this book, and given that he cooked it up (from your point of view of course), he used first person and second person addresses to talk to you the reader.

    • I responded with: "Something tells me that you're in for a big surprise." What do you think, given the probability that loverofhumanity has the current Hebrew and Christian Scriptures in mind when claiming that "To become a Muslim one MUST also accept the Gospels and Torah?
    • BTW, you do realize that wizanda's collection of beliefs is the product of his/her personal creative efforts, don't you?
    [/QUOTE]

    Well. I do believe he has the current Hebrew and Christians scriptures in mind. But I could be wrong because some Bahai's also believe that the Torah and Gospel is not the Bible but some of the essence is alive in the Bible. So thats a different point of view. Muslims also have the same issue. People differ. And I dont read peoples minds if you understand what I am saying.
     
  12. Terry Sampson

    Terry Sampson Well-Known Member

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    A Muslim reads the Qur'an from a devotional point of view and a Christian does not.
    The Christian reads the Hebrew and Christian Scriptures from a devotional point of view and the Muslim does not.
    If, as some [IMO, naively] say, the Muslim and the Christian both worship the same God, has the Muslim or the Christian, or have both, failed to exercise proper devotion when reading both books?
     
  13. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    Great. Thanks.
     
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  14. Epic Beard Man

    Epic Beard Man Bearded Philosopher

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    What say you to these Jew who disagrees with you?






    "Rabbi Ovadiah Yosef witnessed prominent rabbis who prayed in the Mosque at the Cave of Machpelah. He then determines decisively that in Mosques it is permitted to pray and learn there. [3]

    Responsa Yabiah Omer 7, Yoreh De'ah 12, paragraph 4.

    RaMbaM himself prostrated ( http://www.chayas.com/qidah.htm ), and his son Rabbeinu Avarohom said that the islamic prostration comes from our prophets. He also said we should be ashamed that the goyim are taking our minhagim while we are taking the bad minhagim of the goyim(Hamaspik LaOvdei HaShem).

    If Muslims don't worship the God of Abraham why is it permitted that they (Jews) can worship in a mosque and not in a church?
     
    #54 Epic Beard Man, Sep 16, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2019
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  15. Wasp

    Wasp Active Member

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    When said that Christians worship the same God it actually refers to the original christianity. But christianity has gone through major changes, especially in the first few hundred years of it, which makes is very problematic to decide whether today's Christians and how many of them worship the same God as Muslims. Or another way to put it is that the Christians worship their God wrong.
     
  16. Pastek

    Pastek Sunni muslim

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    He asked for some verses and you asked him to read FIVE times the Quran .... why ?
     
  17. Wasp

    Wasp Active Member

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  18. Pastek

    Pastek Sunni muslim

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    So ?
    One time with a paper and a pen is more than enought.
    You don't have to read each verse 5 times to get it.

    It's like you try to make it complicated to people who just want to have some information and make it like they are into an analysis of the Quran.

    If I want to know how God interacts with people in the Bible will you tell me that I have to read the Bible 5 times too ?
     
  19. Wasp

    Wasp Active Member

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    I would, actually. I wasn't responsing to the question about verses. Didn't even notice it. Just general "information about Allah and His interactions with humans as they are recorded in the Qur'an" imo does require extensive studying.

    Yes, it gets complicated. You like to make it simple. I don't because it isn't simple to me.
     
  20. Pastek

    Pastek Sunni muslim

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    He didn't say he wanted to convert or have a profound analysis, we are not in the "Scriptural Debates" section.
    He just asked for few passages to compare quickly with the Bible.
    But you made it so complicated that he even didn't want to search for more.

    What you are doing is the opposite of Islam :

    The Prophet (pbuh) said:

    Religion is easy, and no one overburdens himself in his religion but he will be unable to continue in that way. So do not be extremists, but try to be near perfection and receive the good tidings that you will be rewarded. Gain strength by worshipping in the mornings and afternoons and during the last hours of the night.”

    “The best of your religion is that which is easiest, the best of your religion is that which is easiest.”

    Commentary on the hadeeth “No one overburdens himself in his religion but he will be unable to continue in that way” - Islam Question & Answer

    "Facilitate religious matters to people and do not make things difficult."
    (Bukhari)

    And from Quran :

    3.159 It is part of the mercy of Allah that you* deal gently with them. If you were severe or hardhearted, they would have broken away from you.
    *
    Muhammad

    I don't understand those muslims in forums who ask people to learn arabic, to read many times the Quran when they ask simple questions.
    Islam is not a complicated religion.
     
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