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Featured Muslim revisits the Intelligent Design argument!

Discussion in 'Evolution Vs. Creationism' started by Mohsen, May 14, 2018.

  1. Mohsen

    Mohsen السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته

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    This was very interesting to me, because the guy in the video (a Muslim named Subboor) says that Muslims should not support the Intelligent Design argument and gives his reasons why. He's incredibly well read!



    I'm looking forward to reading your thoughts (from both camps)!
     
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  2. idav

    idav Being
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    That’s pretty funny at the end when he says Darwinian evolution is based on a probalistic framework with multiple assumptions. I don’t think so, evolution is pretty straightforward. One major issue with the videos claim is that science makes solid predictions proving they aren’t just making assumptions but things are based on facts. Scientists tell the future better than religious prophets.
     
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  3. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    Isn't this the Muslim that lost the debate so badly to Aron Ra?

     
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  4. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    Listened to a bit of the video, and like many science deniers he starts with false charges of "scientisim" and then tries to make false claims about how science is done in general. He already lost any debate through dishonesty. An honest person would have started with the reasons for his beliefs instead of making false claims about those that he disagrees with.
     
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  5. David T

    David T Well-Known Member
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    Lacks talent.... but that what I say about 99.9999999% of the time. Like a few notes and then a muddle. He should stick to.drawing or something.
     
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  6. YmirGF

    YmirGF Bodhisattva

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    Stopped watching at :49 seconds. I'm not interested in a person's viewpoint when they are highly disingenuous from the get go.
     
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  7. Jesster

    Jesster Friendly skeptic
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    "Scientism"
    :rolleyes:
     
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  8. Thermos aquaticus

    Thermos aquaticus Well-Known Member

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    It is yet another verification that one has to reject all of science in order to reject the theory of evolution.
     
  9. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    Got ya beat by 4 seconds, but only because of your heads-up. ;)

    .
     
  10. YmirGF

    YmirGF Bodhisattva

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    Glad I could be of service. Life is too short for some crap.
     
  11. Mohsen

    Mohsen السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته

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  12. LuisDantas

    LuisDantas Aura of atheification
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    It is really sad that this is the level of discourse that we find. Nearly hopeless.
     
  13. Mohsen

    Mohsen السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته

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    judging by the comments here in the thread, i can only agree Luis!
     
  14. LuisDantas

    LuisDantas Aura of atheification
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    You know, I dearly want to learn more from your perspective.

    What merits do you see in the video?
     
  15. LuisDantas

    LuisDantas Aura of atheification
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    Scientism is a real thing. But not a charge to take seriously coming from that video.

    If anything, it is a flaw that the video suffers from.
     
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  16. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    Do you realize now that the maker of that video made false claims about others?
     
  17. Jose Fly

    Jose Fly Fisker of men

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    My review....

    He starts off by saying that the problem is scientism, i.e. the belief that science is the only source of knowledge for all subjects. While I agree that sort of thing can be a problem, he does not say exactly who is guilty of it, let alone show where they are engaging in it.

    He then says we believe in scientific conclusions because of "testimony from scientists". While that may be true for the general public in a very superficial way, the reality is that no one has to rely on mere testimony. There's a reason scientific papers have entire sections for methods, results, and discussion.....it's so anyone who's truly interested can see for themselves how the data was collected, how it was analyzed, and how the conclusions stem from those results. So the reason the general public largely relies on "testimony from scientists" isn't because scientists are telling everyone "X is true because we say so", it's because by making their work so transparent for the last century+, the the scientific community has earned a bit of trust among the public. Therefore, a more accurate way to describe the situation is scientists telling the public "We've concluded that the data supports X. Anyone who's interested can read more about how that's so by reading our paper." The fact that most of the public chooses not to read the paper is not a knock on scientists or their work.

    He then states that "intelligent design" is an attempt to make a scientific case for the existence of God, and that's a result of the "world of scientism" in which we live. Other than the straw man regarding scientism, he is correct. ID creationism is indeed a legal/political attempt to make a scientific case for God.

    Regarding the above, he correctly notes that because science operates according to methodological naturalism, gods by definition cannot be part of the scientific method, which means ID creationism cannot be science.

    He then argues that ID creationism actually buys into scientism because it assumes that theists need to make a scientific case for God. I think that's a valid point.

    He also notes that even if ID creationism successfully made a case for God, because scientific theories are always provisional, the hypothetical case for God could always be overturned. Again, I think that's a valid point.

    He then states that human/chimp common ancestry is directly opposed to Islam, and since ID creationism is silent on that issue, Muslims should not support ID creationism. Not being a Muslim, I really have no thoughts on that other than my sadness at seeing yet another religious group declare that if reality conflicts with their religious beliefs, they will always reject reality no matter what.

    He then notes how Islam states that everything was created by God, whereas ID creationism says that some things were created by God. He also notes that ID creationism doesn't specify who or what the "designer" is, which is a problem for Muslims as well as scientists.

    He finishes by noting that just because Muslims reject common ancestry, that doesn't mean they have to come up with a replacement.

    Overall, I think he does make a good case for why Muslims should not advocate for ID creationism. I took his gripes about scientism to be more a subconscious reflection of his angst over the world's increasing shift towards secularism, of which science is indeed a factor.
     
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  18. SalixIncendium

    SalixIncendium Advaita Vedantin
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    I agree fully with Subboor in his assessment that Intelligent Design is not a "correct scientific theory."

    Evolution by natural selection, however, is a correct scientific theory.

    FTR, I made it all the way to 7:12. I guess I have a greater tolerance for ignorance than many based on my vocation.
     
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  19. Jesster

    Jesster Friendly skeptic
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    I finished watching, and it was worth a good laugh.
     
  20. YmirGF

    YmirGF Bodhisattva

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    What makes this noteworthy is that several years ago I saw another preacher, in a panel discussion, explaining why Muslims should embrace Christian Creationism, which later was to become Intelligent Design. Perhaps Muslim intellectuals are feeling a bit of buyer's remorse over the dismal failure of Intelligent Design to catch on.
     
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