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Muslim man sentenced to death for blasphemy in Pakistan

Glaurung

Denizen of Niflheim
@Valjean I have slightly reformatted your post in my reply for reasons of readability.

I should think infinite dignity would be absolutely imperturbable.
It is. There is nothing any creature can do that can in any way diminish God. But God as God is entitled to our reverence and worship as a matter of justice. Blasphemy is a sin against this reverence and since God is just he must hold injustice to account. In this case the injustice done is against the virtue of religion.

  1. Is the injustice against God, or against some other entity?
  2. Who has been harmed? For that matter, is 'justice' consequential, or deontologic?
  3. What makes it society's business to extract retribution? You acknowledge that God cannot be harmed by our actions, so what harm is being vindicated?
  4. What is retribution supposed to accomplish?Piety owed to God? Who determined this? How does this piety benefit God? How is God hurt by its withdrawal?
  5. Do all who withhold piety from Allah deserve death -- Christians, Buddhists? Parsis? Animists? Atheists?
  1. It is against God, since blasphemy attacks the reverence due to God.
  2. Ultimately, the one harmed is the blasphemer himself. Mortal sin deprives us of sanctifying grace, without which we are ineligible for salvation.
  3. Under current circumstances I do not think the civil authority (in secular states) is in a position to punish blasphemy. At this point, the explicit re-recognition of God as lord over even secular states will not happen outside divine intervention.
  4. Retribution makes satisfaction for wrong done. It is the same principle by which Catholics commit to penance after absolution.
  5. My religion teaches that anyone who dies in mortal sin deserves eternity in Hell.
What has the blasphemer to repent for? Why should he convert? Don't the Muslims condemn conversion, inasmuch as it entails apostacy?
His sin against the virtue of religion. I meant conversion in the sense of growing closer to God, not necessarily converting to Catholicism. Although should the truth of Catholicism press upon a person's conscience that person should convert to Catholicism. One is obligated to accept the truth. But to the extent a person can accept the truth is in part a grace from God and in part a consequence of that person's circumstances.

Should you, a Catholic, be killed for your impiety toward Isis, or Thor, or Allah?
Isis and Thor are false deities of dead religions. I would not blaspheme Allah, since Allah as understood by Muslims is worshiped as the same God I as a Christian recognise. The error in Islam (from a Christian point of view) is not so much in what it affirms but in what it denies. Nonetheless, if I were to go to an Islamic state and badmouth Islam I would be committing a catastrophic imprudence at the very least.

What makes blasphemy a sin? Is heterodoxy itself a sin? Is deviance from every religion's doctrine a sin? If so, what of contradictory doctrines? Eg: You say the Catholic god is real, a Buddhist says no god is real, the Navajo say the Diyin Diné are real. Which one sins? Aren't they all heretics in the eyes of the others? Can all of them be legitimately punished?
As a Catholic, I recognise only one religion as being true. That is the religion taught by the Church founded by God incarnate. All other religions are mistaken. Being mistaken is not in itself a sin or heresy. The sin is in ignoring the truth once and if it has been made known to you.

A Muslim who knows only Islam is not in sin on that account. Nor a Buddhist in a similar position. As to the salvation of those outside the visible Church, we commend that to God.
 
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Lyndon

"Peace is the answer" quote: GOD, 2014
Premium Member
If you have a big problem with the laws in Pakistan, maybe you should move to Pakistan and try and do something about it??? We have a lot of f'd up laws here that Pakistanis are not in favour of too.

From what I understand this blasphemy law accounts for maybe 1-2 deaths /yr in Pakistan. We unjustly execute more people than that in the USA, maybe we should concentrate on that instead.
 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
It is not God that is putting the man to death, it is the Muslims. God is not at all susceptible to getting His feelings hurt by humans, in spite of what the Bible says. :rolleyes:
Exactly. I imagine an infinitely intelligent being would also be infinitely patient and understanding rather than react like a petty mortal with a fragile go.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
From what I understand this blasphemy law accounts for maybe 1-2 deaths /yr in Pakistan. We unjustly execute more people than that in the USA, maybe we should concentrate on that instead.
But I read that quite a few are jailed for many years before even making it to trial; this might be emotional tactic, because uncertainty is a killer to

I do agree that we better concentrate on our own problems first. Although nowadays in France there are 8% Muslims so it does become global
 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
If you have a big problem with the laws in Pakistan, maybe you should move to Pakistan and try and do something about it??? We have a lot of f'd up laws here that Pakistanis are not in favour of too.

From what I understand this blasphemy law accounts for maybe 1-2 deaths /yr in Pakistan. We unjustly execute more people than that in the USA, maybe we should concentrate on that instead.
False dichotomy.
I think any person with a conscience should concern themselves with all human rights issues, at home or abroad.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
If you have a big problem with the laws in Pakistan, maybe you should move to Pakistan and try and do something about it?
Really? It will be a very foolish person who would try to do that.

Pakis-off-to-jihad-vs-US.jpg

Pakistan dodges terror black list for now
 
'Lahore, Oct 21 (PTI) A Pakistani court on Wednesday sentenced a Muslim man to death and imposed a fine of USD 3,085 on him for blasphemy in the country’s Punjab province.

Amin, a resident of Layyah district which is some 400 kms from here, was arrested a few years ago on his neighbour’s complaint that he had committed blasphemy.

A district and sessions court of Layyah handed down the death sentence to Amin and also imposed a fine of 500,000 Pakistani Rupee (USD 3,085) on him.

Additional Sessions Judge Hasnain Raza sentenced him to death in the light of prosecution witnesses.'

Read more here: Muslim man sentenced to death for blasphemy in Pakistan

Muslims killing Muslims so that America doesn't have to! Doesn't sound so bad really, does it? How are we meant to react to this news (if we were right in the mind)?
 
Exactly. I imagine an infinitely intelligent being would also be infinitely patient and understanding rather than react like a petty mortal with a fragile go.
No way. What would a being with the ability to kill and bring back to life care about someone no longer living or being imprisoned in Pakistan? Now the accused is not in prison in Pakistan. He could be riding a unicorn in space now, I think its a win-win.
 
If you have a big problem with the laws in Pakistan, maybe you should move to Pakistan and try and do something about it??? We have a lot of f'd up laws here that Pakistanis are not in favour of too.

From what I understand this blasphemy law accounts for maybe 1-2 deaths /yr in Pakistan. We unjustly execute more people than that in the USA, maybe we should concentrate on that instead.

I know you're the voice of reason, but hate is louder than truth.
 
@Valjean I have slightly reformatted your post in my reply for reasons of readability.


It is. There is nothing any creature can do that can in any way diminish God. But God as God is entitled to our reverence and worship as a matter of justice. Blasphemy is a sin against this reverence and since God is just he must hold injustice to account. In this case the injustice done is against the virtue of religion.


  1. It is against God, since blasphemy attacks the reverence due to God.
  2. Ultimately, the one harmed is the blasphemer himself. Mortal sin deprives us of sanctifying grace, without which we are ineligible for salvation.
  3. Under current circumstances I do not think the civil authority (in secular states) is in a position to punish blasphemy. At this point, the explicit re-recognition of God as lord over even secular states will not happen outside divine intervention.
  4. Retribution makes satisfaction for wrong done. It is the same principle by which Catholics commit to penance after absolution.
  5. My religion teaches that anyone who dies in mortal sin deserves eternity in Hell.

His sin against the virtue of religion. I meant conversion in the sense of growing closer to God, not necessarily converting to Catholicism. Although should the truth of Catholicism press upon a person's conscience that person should convert to Catholicism. One is obligated to accept the truth. But to the extent a person can accept the truth is in part a grace from God and in part a consequence of that person's circumstances.


Isis and Thor are false deities of dead religions. I would not blaspheme Allah, since Allah as understood by Muslims is worshiped as the same God I as a Christian recognise. The error in Islam (from a Christian point of view) is not so much in what it affirms but in what it denies. Nonetheless, if I were to go to an Islamic state and badmouth Islam I would be committing a catastrophic imprudence at the very least.


As a Catholic, I recognise only one religion as being true. That is the religion taught by the Church founded by God incarnate. All other religions are mistaken. Being mistaken is not in itself a sin or heresy. The sin is in ignoring the truth once and if it has been made known to you.

A Muslim who knows only Islam is not in sin on that account. Nor a Buddhist in a similar position. As to the salvation of those outside the visible Church, we commend that to God.

It pains me to read than Isis and Thor are false deities of dead religions. Its like saying Aten doesn't shine every morning right before your very eyes and upon your face and you've never heard the peal of Thunder. How could the Throne ever die, if it never lived as a mortal?

These are all intact, and also appear featured in the Qur'an by their names.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Islam and Christianity frequently promote immoral ideas such as blasphemy. Given how many Christians and Muslims there are, that's a big problem.
 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
Humans shouldn't be executed probably. Did I get that right?
I don't believe so, if only because justice systems are prone to error. You can release the falsely convicted, but you can't resurrect them.
But that aside, they especially shouldn't be executed when such punishment is extremely disproportionate to the crime.
 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
No way. What would a being with the ability to kill and bring back to life care about someone no longer living or being imprisoned in Pakistan? Now the accused is not in prison in Pakistan. He could be riding a unicorn in space now, I think its a win-win.
Why would such a being not be above succumbing to butthurt?
 
Why would such a being not be above succumbing to butthurt?
Can you imagine that the being which invented butthurt in order to experience butthurt finds "butthurt" a novelty? If you really think about it, since everything would start with Nothing and has to be built up, things like noses and clowns and "being offended" are all entirely absurd, but exist, and would be entirely novel to feel these sensations or experience them through the experiences created (like the experience of being a butthurt judge in Pakistan). I think that God, having started far beyond these things, has created all these things which are absurd, baseless, novel inventions and sensations, and then forces these stories and experiences into realities where people are horrifically victimized, and can make it also like it never even happened. I don't believe in a God that is benevolent or has any need to be benevolent, but that invented the idea or notion of "benevolence", wags it in front of people's faces, while torturing and killing them en masse, and then bringing them back for another round and another if IT so wishes. Given an infinite amount of time and power, what else is there to do than make up crap and blow shtuff up?
 
I don't believe so, if only because justice systems are prone to error. You can release the falsely convicted, but you can't resurrect them.
But that aside, they especially shouldn't be executed when such punishment is extremely disproportionate to the crime.

Yeah, its mainly for the chance of the falsely convicted that I hesitate about executions, but otherwise, I think it seems just to my mind to kill killers who killed and even violent serial rapists and stuff.
 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
Can you imagine that the being which invented butthurt in order to experience butthurt finds "butthurt" a novelty? If you really think about it, since everything would start with Nothing and has to be built up, things like noses and clowns and "being offended" are all entirely absurd, but exist, and would be entirely novel to feel these sensations or experience them through the experiences created (like the experience of being a butthurt judge in Pakistan). I think that God, having started far beyond these things, has created all these things which are absurd, baseless, novel inventions and sensations, and then forces these stories and experiences into realities where people are horrifically victimized, and can make it also like it never even happened. I don't believe in a God that is benevolent or has any need to be benevolent, but that invented the idea or notion of "benevolence", wags it in front of people's faces, while torturing and killing them en masse, and then bringing them back for another round and another if IT so wishes. Given an infinite amount of time and power, what else is there to do than make up crap and blow shtuff up?
So god is some sort of cosmic parasite that cultivates suffering in order to feed off of it?
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
If you have a big problem with the laws in Pakistan, maybe you should move to Pakistan and try and do something about it??? We have a lot of f'd up laws here that Pakistanis are not in favour of too.

From what I understand this blasphemy law accounts for maybe 1-2 deaths /yr in Pakistan. We unjustly execute more people than that in the USA, maybe we should concentrate on that instead.
Pakistan awarded death penalty to 584 people, 17 for blasphemy in 2019 - Times of India
These, of course, are recorded, judicial executions. But justice in outlying districts is usually handled by the village council, and is usually unreported..
Panchayat – Pakistan’s alternate judicial system
Heaven knows how many honor killings are carried out by family members, or how many are killed by mobs or annoyed neighbors.
Pakistan mob kills woman, girls, over 'blasphemous' Facebook post
Lynching of Mashal Khan - Wikipedia
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Blasphemy is a Catholic concept that doesn't make any sense, but does rely by definition on the idea of a central infallible institution like the Papacy (something absent from the Pakistan or any Muslim-majority country, which are simply independent countries doing their own thing) for such a concept to actually etymologically and semantically be a thing.

This is beside the point I'm making that this is a nonsense article that doesn't explain anything. I genuinely would like to actually hear about the situation rather than this shock value clickbait circle jerk garbage.

Sounds like you are in denial about what actually happens in the islamic theocracies in the middle east.

Cases such as this are hardly without precedent.
 
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