Muslim Brotherhood takes lead in Egypt vote.

[Debater Slayer]

I have noticed that the most aggressive/most armed person is generally the one most fearful of being attacked.

But I don't think America is fearful of being attacked, yet it has the largest army in the world and tons of nuclear weaponry. It's been decades since any Arab country attacked Israel even when Israel killed a number of Egyptian border troops earlier this year.

 

[Riverwolf]

But I don't think America is fearful of being attacked, yet it has the largest army in the world and tons of nuclear weaponry.

Are you serious? America is EXTREMELY paranoid about being attacked. The majority of taxes and governmental budget doesn't go to the military for no reason, after all.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Are you serious? America is EXTREMELY paranoid about being attacked. The majority of taxes and governmental budget doesn't go to the military for no reason, after all.

Huh? That is rather panicky. I mean who can wage war on the world's biggest nation?

 

[Photonic]

I have noticed that the most aggressive/most armed person is generally the one most fearful of being attacked.

I've also noticed that the person surrounded by the most hostiles is the one most fearful of attack.

And Israel has been surrounded by people who want them to be wiped off the Earth since day 1.

 

[Photonic]

Huh? That is rather panicky. I mean who can wage war on the world's biggest nation?

Honestly? No one really could wage a true direct war on the US without being seriously messed up.

Military expenditure of the US is 46% of the entire military budget of the planet.

And being the 3rd most populated country in the world and the means to arm every single person extremely well. Invasion would be suicide.

Does that stop the US from THINKING people are attacking it all the time? Sadly not. Some of the new bills working their way through our government systems are serious restrictions on the people in the name of security.


"He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither."

Possibly Ben Franklin.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Honestly? No one really could wage a true direct war on the US without being seriously messed up.

Military expenditure of the US is 46% of the entire military budget of the planet.

And being the 3rd most populated country in the world and the means to arm every single person extremely well. Invasion would be suicide.

Does that stop the US from THINKING people are attacking it all the time? Sadly not. Some of the new bills working their way through our government systems are serious restrictions on the people in the name of security.


"He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither."

Possibly Ben Franklin.

Benjamin Franklin's quote on the freedom/security dichotomy is brilliant, and pretty much describes what's happening the world at the moment (especially in the Arab World).

And yeah, the past few (or many) US governments have been very warlike, despite already having a large army and a huge repertoire of nuclear weaponry.

Not to mention the significant economical and political consequences an invader of the US would have to face. The idea is just so unfeasible it's ridiculous to even think about it.

 

[Photonic]

Benjamin Franklin's quote on the freedom/security dichotomy is brilliant, and pretty much describes what's happening the world at the moment (especially in the Arab World).

And yeah, the past few (or many) US governments have been very warlike, despite already having a large army and a huge repertoire of nuclear weaponry.

Not to mention the significant economical and political consequences an invader of the US would have to face. The idea is just so unfeasible it's ridiculous to even think about it.

We were warned by quite a number of our ex leaders about becoming a military state.

Military-Industrial Complex Speech, Dwight D. Eisenhower, 1961

TL;DR, Dwight D. Eisenhower warned us not to become an Military-Industrial state.

Still, well worth reading.

 

[England my lionheart]

I remember months ago when I said this will be the outcome some members typically shrugged it off and ridiculed my post.
however I will comment that the MB will have to tone itself down and moderate or compromise on its Islamist line in order to have such an active role.
in Morocco the Islamist party is not necessarily militant, but perhaps more concerned with the nation's domestic woes and how to address them.
so time will tell.

I agree,time will tell,this is a massive opportunity for the MB but the first obstacle for all Egyptians is the Military,whoever wins the election still have their hands tied until they give up power.

As for the MB toning itself down or compromising its Islamist ideology,i think there are those in the MB who would like to replace Badie as leader because he is considered too conservative,after all,he wants to continue on Qutbs reforms which don't make for good reading.

 

[England my lionheart]

his may be of interest:

BBC News - Egypt election: Officials announce poll results

 

[Godobeyer]

his may be of interest:

BBC News - Egypt election: Officials announce poll results

tunisia ,and moroco and egypt ....Islamic parties won and turkey was also .

this is the democtary , the results is normal , because they are religious societies , not like the west most of the countries are secular .

there is no problem between islam and democraty/freedom .

the problem is when the democtary fall from the sky : this what made the terrorism and the civilian war in islamic countries .

 

[Shermana]

I have noticed that the most aggressive/most armed person is generally the one most fearful of being attacked.

Historically, Egypt has been well-armed by the Russians, and has been very aggressive towards Israel. The 1967 war was not exactly without warrant. Egypt has nearly 80 million people, Israel has 6, 5 of them Jews. Egypt has American and Russian weapons and a huge army (Along with about 1.3 billion in American military aid each year). If you are implying that Israel is more aggressive and armed than Egypt, think again and try actually looking up the facts. They have F-16s and M1s too. So who has "American Armor" again? And actually, Israel doesn't even use "American Armor", they use the Homegrown Merkava (maybe a few old M60s in storage).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_Armed_Forces

An Egypt in political and economic turmoil, as many Israeli leaders have said, is even more unpredictable and chaotic in terms of being a threat than a stable one.

Photonic says it rather nicely here:

I've also noticed that the person surrounded by the most hostiles is the one most fearful of attack.

And Israel has been surrounded by people who want them to be wiped off the Earth since day 1.

 

[Riverwolf]

Huh? That is rather panicky. I mean who can wage war on the world's biggest nation?

Well, the last time a country attacked America was... in five days, it will be the 70th anniversary of the one time that I'm aware of that another country attacked the US in the past 100 years... and we weren't even the world military power at the time.

 

[Riverwolf]

Honestly? No one really could wage a true direct war on the US without being seriously messed up.

Military expenditure of the US is 46% of the entire military budget of the planet.

And being the 3rd most populated country in the world and the means to arm every single person extremely well. Invasion would be suicide.

Does that stop the US from THINKING people are attacking it all the time? Sadly not. Some of the new bills working their way through our government systems are serious restrictions on the people in the name of security.


"He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither."

Possibly Ben Franklin.

You forgot the most important part: "...and loses both."

 

[Riverwolf]

Historically, Egypt has been well-armed by the Russians, and has been very aggressive towards Israel. The 1967 war was not exactly without warrant. Egypt has nearly 80 million people, Israel has 6, 5 of them Jews. Egypt has American and Russian weapons and a huge army (Along with about 1.3 billion in American military aid each year). If you are implying that Israel is more aggressive and armed than Egypt, think again and try actually looking up the facts. They have F-16s and M1s too. So who has "American Armor" again? And actually, Israel doesn't even use "American Armor", they use the Homegrown Merkava (maybe a few old M60s in storage).

Egyptian Armed Forces - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

An Egypt in political and economic turmoil, as many Israeli leaders have said, is even more unpredictable and chaotic in terms of being a threat than a stable one.

Photonic says it rather nicely here:

And it is an excellent point. I'm not trying to say that Israel is safe; to be honest, I only have peripheral knowledge of the current situation, mostly because I don't entirely trust the various sources of knowledge.

I was just pointing out a real tendency, and really referring to the US more than anything else.

 

[gnostic]

All Egyptians were "persecuted" and abused for decades, but it's not necessarily based on belief or religion. You could get into jail and be tortured brutally for criticizing the regime, spreading public awareness, and even for something as simple as getting into a fight with a police officer.

True, and I understand that.

However, part of the Muslim populace (not the authorities) have directly assaulted and persecuted the Coptic populace and burning their homes and churches. The Coptic Christians have been attacked from both sides, on the one hand the authorities and on the other hand, by their Muslim neighbors.

And clearly, the Muslim Brotherhood don't like the Christians, when the previous regime had put forward a bill that allow for Christians to have a political leader and party of their own. Although the Coptic Christians are also Egyptian citizens, but also a minority, and yet the MB don't want Christians to have a say in the Egyptian political/social landscape. And because the population is small, they are actually no threat to the MB, but they seem determine to marginalise the Coptic even further. How is that fair?

 

[gnostic]

I don't think the Muslim Brotherhood would be fair to minority groups in their country.

Should the MB ever win power, but protect only the rights of Egyptian Muslims and not Egyptian Christians, then they are no better the current and previous regimes. Any leader who fail to protect all citizens, no matter whatever race or religion or gender they belong to, then how is it better than the current dictatorship?

The two questions below must be addressed by the Muslim Brotherhood:

1. What is their policies regarding to Coptic Christians (or any other minority groups for that mattter)?
2. Will they have equal rights as citizens?

 

[Caladan]

So I'm bad because I think Israel should be getting ready for a war bigger than anything they've experienced before? You're welcome to your optimistic opinion that everything's gonna stay as is. But I think you calling me offensive to Jews themselves is a bit rude.

No you are not bad, if you think Israel should be ready for external security threats. to be honest I am not sure what do you mean by the biggest war they have experienced. I don't want to project, but its always ideal to keep religious sentiments like these (if this is what it is) out of clear security threats and measures.
often Israel does not answer to the religious expectations of people, because Israel is officially a secular nation.

 

[England my lionheart]

tunisia ,and moroco and egypt ....Islamic parties won and turkey was also .

Maybe a case of the blind leading the blind

this is the democtary , the results is normal , because they are religious societies , not like the west most of the countries are secular .

Lets hope that the Eyptian people get what they are voting for,the FJP AKA Muslim Brotherhood has some rotten roots IMO.


there is no problem between islam and democraty/freedom .

Of course not,unless your an Apostate,Gay,Adulterer or anything else that isn't Islamic

the problem is when the democtary fall from the sky : this what made the terrorism and the civilian war in islamic countries .

Yes its always someone elses fault eh,its nothing at all to do with the backward Islamic countries themselves,isn't Islamic education great.

 

[Debater Slayer]

True, and I understand that.

However, part of the Muslim populace (not the authorities) have directly assaulted and persecuted the Coptic populace and burning their homes and churches. The Coptic Christians have been attacked from both sides, on the one hand the authorities and on the other hand, by their Muslim neighbors.

Fundamentalism and intolerance are everywhere. You're always going to have religious conflicts somewhere in your country, although the point is minimizing it until it completely disappears (which is nigh-impossible, considering that we're humans ).

And clearly, the Muslim Brotherhood don't like the Christians, when the previous regime had put forward a bill that allow for Christians to have a political leader and party of their own. Although the Coptic Christians are also Egyptian citizens, but also a minority, and yet the MB don't want Christians to have a say in the Egyptian political/social landscape. And because the population is small, they are actually no threat to the MB, but they seem determine to marginalise the Coptic even further. How is that fair?

The Christians now have a political party, a leader, and have a right to vote as much as anyone else does.

In fact, an ex-member of the Muslims Brotherhood (who is a presidential candidate) said that if the people chose a Coptic president, he would be okay with it, as long as he was chosen freely.

How does that sound unfair?

Yes its always someone elses fault eh,its nothing at all to do with the backward Islamic countries themselves

Turkey is mainly an Islamic country, and it's doing very well in terms of development and progress. I've yet to hear of a Turkish citizen being stoned or beheaded too.

isn't Islamic education great.

You ever had any doubt?

 

[England my lionheart]

Quote Debater slayer

Turkey is mainly an Islamic country, and it's doing very well in terms of development and progress. I've yet to hear of a Turkish citizen being stoned or beheaded too.

Unless your a Kurd of course ,at one time they weren't allowed to sing in their own language

You ever had any doubt? [/quote]

Non at all,really,you can see its benefit all over the Middle East