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Musical instruments...

kmorvant

New Member
sojourner said:
Of course I see what you mean.
My point is this: You say Christ told us to "go," but didn't specify how, leaving that to our best discretion. How do you think that logic is different for being told to worship, but not particularly being told how?

Again, I'm not dissing your practice. It's beautiful. I have a great deal of respect for C of C. In my own tradition, we take seriously the Psalms, where it says to praise God in God's sanctuary with timbrel, lute, harp, trumpet, cymbals, strings and pipe.

I don't see how the Church justifies that NT silence on the use of instruments constitutes a commandment not to use them. Why is the use of instruments not seen as an expediency, in that case, much like wearing clothes in the rite of baptism?
Mainly from the scriptures that say to sing or speak to each other. If they weren't there, then I would say that we have the liberty to do as we see fit. Also, from early church writings they did not use instruments which would indicate that they saw it the same way. The Catholic and Greek Orthodox churches split over that issue as well. If the scripture had said to sing and play or strum or pluck then the instrument would be included. It is interesting to note that there is no musical scale for the Jewish Culture, so I don't know how sophisticated their playing was at that time. Also, even in the Jewish Culture they did not play instruments in the temple, which is what we are under Christ. Because of this I am not willing to risk my salvation on a maybe that instruments are OK.

Kenneth
 

Linus

Well-Known Member
sojourner said:
My point is this: You say Christ told us to "go," but didn't specify how, leaving that to our best discretion. How do you think that logic is different for being told to worship, but not particularly being told how?
That's just it. We are told how. We are told to sing. Ephesians 5:19 and Colossians 3:16.

sojourner said:
Again, I'm not dissing your practice. It's beautiful. I have a great deal of respect for C of C.
I realize that. And thank you for saying it. :) And likewise please do not feel like I am attacking you or your church. I am merely trying to emphasize something that I think is important.

sojourner said:
I don't see how the Church justifies that NT silence on the use of instruments constitutes a commandment not to use them.
It's not that silence is viewed as a command not to do something. It's that silence is simply the lack of authority to do something. Biblical silence does not constitute a command, it constitutes the lack of a command, and therefore prohibition. Like I said before, we cannot know the will of our God unless He reveals it to us. So how can we authorize the use of instruments with our singing unless God says it's acceptable in worship?

sojourner said:
Why is the use of instruments not seen as an expediency, in that case, much like wearing clothes in the rite of baptism?
Instruments are not an expediency because 1) It does not necessarily aid in singing (as is evidenced by the CoC) and 2. it is a separate act of worship. The use of musical instruments while singing can be done without, so why use them?

Did you read the articles I posted? They might help you understanding my viewpoint a little more.
 

Lindsey-Loo

Steel Magnolia
This is my question, what about listening to "Christian music" that is not a capella? Lots of my friends listen to it, but they don't necessarily believe it's right to sing with instruments. Is there a contradiction there? What are people's thoughts on this?

That's a good question, FaithHopeLove. It's one to which I do not know the answer, but I will investigate. I'll try and get back to you on later with my answer.

I believe I have found an answer to the above question:


http://www.franklinchurchofchrist.com/sermons/date/2004/htm/20040314PM.htm
It's the very last question on the page.

IV. Can Christians listen to “Contemporary Christian” music or gospel music that is accompanied by mechanical musical instruments? If not, why can we listen to “honkey-tonk” music but not something that helps us get our thoughts where they should be?
A. As we begin the answer to this question, we must first note that this question has so many facets to it that no matter what I say, somebody will have a, “But what if…” question when we are done. I do not have every answer for every question or every song. In a very real sense, I have to leave some of the answers for various songs and groups up to the individual conscience of each listener. If you cannot listen with the faith that what you are doing is alright, then do not. Again, we remember Romans 14:23, whatever is not from faith is sin.
B. Additionally, we must note that while this question categorizes music into clear cut genres, it simply does not work that way in reality. In modern music there are groups which call themselves “Christian” whose songs are so veiled most people would never know what they are singing about. Further, there are some groups that refuse to be classified as “Christian” and yet wear spirituality on their sleeve for all to see. So we cannot answer this question simply by how the music is classified.
C. Further, we must recognize that the question asks one thing, when, in fact, the important issue is another. This question asks about listening, as though the act of hearing what might be classified as a religious song would be wrong. The Bible never addresses listening to music. Rather it addresses worshipping God with music. Regrettably, today, too many Christians have so focused on the assemblies they have missed that the Bible rarely differentiates between the assembly or individual when talking about music in worship and it is always singing. Acts 16:25; I Corinthians 14:15; Ephesians 5:19; Colossians 3:16: Hebrews 2:12 and James 5:13 all mention singing, whether in the assembly or out of it. There is simply no authority to worship God with instruments of music either accompanying or in place of our singing whether in the assembly, in our homes, in our cars or at the concert hall.
D. I believe I can clearly say from scripture that to worship along with “Contemporary Christian” or “Southern Gospel” bands and groups is as sinful in your car as it would be in this building. If in some way you can listen without worshipping God, then I cannot say anything to you about it. Having been brought up in the Baptist church, in which this kind of music was staple for our youth groups, I was trained that even listening to this kind of music is worshipping God. So I have a hard time being able to understand how anyone can claim they are listening to and singing along with these songs and claim they are not worshipping. If, however, you believe you are listening without worshipping, allow me to give you some things to think about. First, if you claim that you are not worshipping you are simply using the music to help you get your thoughts focused on God, please explain to me what you think worship is. As far as I can tell, having our thoughts focused on God and using something to draw us to God is worship. Secondly, if you are listening and singing along with these songs, if you are singing the name of God and speaking of spiritual matters with nothing more than a flippant notice of what you are singing, are you not treating holy things in a vain manner? Finally, having been raised around this kind of music and having been exposed to it in numerous ways because of my involvement in radio work, I have found that very few of the songs could actually put your thoughts where they are supposed to be because they are so full of error and false teaching on salvation, baptism, Christ’s kingdom and church, the second-coming, miraculous gifts, etc.
E. Finally, it seems that our questioner presumed that I would say you should steer clear of this modern form of music and also that I would say it is alright to listen to “honkey-tonk” music. That, of course, opens up a whole different can of worms. Can we listen to and be entertained by music that is not religious in nature. I believe we can. Jesus evidently recognized the uses of music outside of worship when He described how the people dealt with John the Baptist and Jesus by speaking of children in the marketplace saying “We played the flute for you and you did not dance; we mourned [or “sang a dirge”-NASB] to you and you did not weep” (Luke 7:32). Paul recognized the use of music outside of worship when he wrote about speaking with tongues of men and angels but not having love as being just like a sounding brass or a clanging cymbal (I Corinthians 13:1, see also I Corinthians 14:7-8). He knew that instruments could be and should be used together in harmony. When just used to make noise, they are useless. Further, Paul demonstrated that being involved in entertainments that are not strictly religious are perfectly fine when he demonstrated that he had read non-Christian poets in Acts 17:28 and that he was well familiar with the games of his day in I Corinthians 9:24-27. However, does that mean we can listen or be entertained by secular entertainments indiscriminately? Absolutely not. I do not know much about honkey-tonk music, because frankly, I do not know how anybody can listen to that stuff anyway. But many of you probably do not know how anybody could listen to the stuff I like. I am a rocker. I love the driving beats and the heavy guitars. I listen to rock music as far back as Elvis and the Beatles on up to Creed and Evanescence. I love listening to 80’s stations that play Def Leppard, Guns N’ Roses, Bon Jovi and I even like some AC/DC songs. But I tell you what I have learned. There is a whole bunch of it I simply cannot listen to as a Christian. Our questioner asked about songs putting our minds where they should be. I am very concerned about the secular songs that put our minds where they should not be. Not every secular song leads our minds into the depths of sin, but a great number of them do as they glorify drinking, sexual immorality and drug use. Ephesians 5:11-12 is very clear. We are not to have fellowship with those sinful things. If it is shameful for us to speak about them, then it is shameful for us to listen to them, sing along with them or watch them in the videos. Can you listen to and be entertained by secular music? Certainly. But be careful that you are not fellowshipping with sinful things by what you are singing along with.
 

Linus

Well-Known Member
Christiangirl0909 said:
I believe I have found an answer to the above question:

Perhaps I've missed something, but I believe Faithopelove was referring to "Christian music." For example Christian rock with srpiritual lyrics that praise God. I don't think there is any question that instrumental music is perfectly permissible, but rather that the issue is whether or not we have the authority to listen to "spiritual music that includes instruments" outside of the congregation. That is something I have yet to determine for myself.
 

Lindsey-Loo

Steel Magnolia
Perhaps I've missed something, but I believe Faithopelove was referring to "Christian music." For example Christian rock with srpiritual lyrics that praise God. I don't think there is any question that instrumental music is perfectly permissible, but rather that the issue is whether or not we have the authority to listen to "spiritual music that includes instruments" outside of the congregation. That is something I have yet to determine for myself.

Yeah...that's what I was reffering to in the answer I provided, Christian rock bands and stuff.
 

keithnurse

Active Member
I'm putting this in the CoC section becuase it is a pretty big issue within the churches of Christ. Being a member, I have heard this come up over and over almost all of my life. But I guess it can apply to all christian churches as well so I will open up the discussion to all christian denominations.

Here goes...

Do you believe that the use of musical instruments should be allowed in praise to God? Why? Do you believe only a capella music should be allowed? Why?

I am of the opinion that musical instruments should not be used in praise to God because I see neither command for nor example of it in the New Testament.

Anyone else?
The NT also doesn't say we can have electrical lighting in churches or air conditioning or microphones or that churches should even own buildings. Should all of that be done away with too?
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
The NT also doesn't say we can have electrical lighting in churches or air conditioning or microphones or that churches should even own buildings. Should all of that be done away with too?
The Churches of Christ formulated their doctrine long before the advent of electric lighting, airco, or sound reinforcement.

I disagree that the NT doesn't say we should own buildings. It's evident in Acts (and corroborated in the archaeological record) that Christian communities owned buildings.
 

keithnurse

Active Member
Musical instruments are a form of technology. If you can't have musical instruments in worship doesn't that also mean, to be consistent, you would also need to get rid of microphones, electrical lighting, airconditioning?
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Musical instruments are a form of technology. If you can't have musical instruments in worship doesn't that also mean, to be consistent, you would also need to get rid of microphones, electrical lighting, airconditioning?
Strictly speaking, what isn't a form of technology? Flint points are a form of technology.
Technology isn't the issue. What's at issue is what is specifically mentioned in the Bible. They don't see it, they don't use it.

What I don't understand (and would like to have explained to me) is that the Psalms specifically state to use instruments -- trumpets, lyres, harps, cymbals -- when praising God. Unless the C of C doesn't participate in the praise of God within worship.

What is y"all's stance on that?
 

keithnurse

Active Member
The NT does not specifically forbid the use of musical instruments in worship and the Psalms DO specifically call for musical instruments.
 

Lindsey-Loo

Steel Magnolia
The NT also doesn't say we can have electrical lighting in churches or air conditioning or microphones or that churches should even own buildings. Should all of that be done away with too?

Lighting, air conditioning, and microphones don't affect our worship. The point is not to precisely copy the early Christians. If we did that, we would have to wear the clothes they wore and have buildings exactly the same and stuff. The point is to mimic the way they worshipped, which was through teaching, prayer, and the singing of praises. They didn't use instruments to worship, so neither do we. Air conditioning, etc., are not tools of worship.

To answer the other question concerning the Psalms, the Psalms are describing Old Testament forms of worship, which is not Christian worship at all. If we worshipped the same way they did, we would have to worship in tabernacles/temples, sacrifice animals, and kill a lot of people for witchcraft, adultery, etc. Furthermore, we see from Hebrews 8 that the OT is now obsolete. We don't follow anything from it unless it is repeated in the New Testament. That's partly how Christianity differs from Judaism.
 

keithnurse

Active Member
Thanks, Lindsey Loo, for clearing that up. Since I don't consider the Bible to be the word of any god the arguments you are using are not convincing to me. I was wondering, do they sing the Psalms in Church of Christ services?
 

Lindsey-Loo

Steel Magnolia
If you don't consider the Bible the word of God, then why does this matter to you either way?

Anywho, I'm not trying to convince you. I'm just explaining where the general Church of Christ stance comes from and why, which is what I thought you were asking. If that's not what you are asking and you are looking for someone to "convince" you one way or another, then you're wasting your time because I am not that person.

As for your question, I would guess it depends on the church. They sang psalms in the NT during their worship, so I think most churches would probably follow suit.
 

keithnurse

Active Member
If you don't consider the Bible the word of God, then why does this matter to you either way?

Anywho, I'm not trying to convince you. I'm just explaining where the general Church of Christ stance comes from and why, which is what I thought you were asking. If that's not what you are asking and you are looking for someone to "convince" you one way or another, then you're wasting your time because I am not that person.

As for your question, I would guess it depends on the church. They sang psalms in the NT during their worship, so I think most churches would probably follow suit.
What do they do when they come to a verse in a Psalm that says "praise Him with the harp, or (musical instrument of your choice)"?
 

Lindsey-Loo

Steel Magnolia
Firstly I'm pretty sure Psalms says nothing about the musical instrument of your choice. ;)

But they would go to Hebrews 8 where it talks about the old laws passing away so that they can be replaced with new ones. That also goes back to what I was saying about how if we followed the Old Testament, we would have to kill gays and adulterers and those who practice witchcraft and stuff. Why do you think some Christians follow some things out of the Old Testament, but not everything?

And you didn't answer my question about why this topic matters to you. I'm genuinely curious.
 

keithnurse

Active Member
Firstly I'm pretty sure Psalms says nothing about the musical instrument of your choice. ;)

But they would go to Hebrews 8 where it talks about the old laws passing away so that they can be replaced with new ones. That also goes back to what I was saying about how if we followed the Old Testament, we would have to kill gays and adulterers and those who practice witchcraft and stuff. Why do you think some Christians follow some things out of the Old Testament, but not everything?

And you didn't answer my question about why this topic matters to you. I'm genuinely curious.
I don't believe the bible is the word of any god or goddess but that doesn't mean I don't think it matters at all. The bible matters to me because it is foundational to our culture and western civilization. We should listen to it and ask ourselves, "Those people believed such and such, does that belief make sense to me? how does it fit with other human knowledge?" I asked the question about musical instruments because for years I wondered how did the church of christ denomination justify having microphones and air conditioning if they are against musical instruments and because I recently became acquainted with the adult bible curriculum from an independent church of christ in tallahassee florida, which rekindled my curiousity about churches of christ.
 

Lindsey-Loo

Steel Magnolia
I don't believe the bible is the word of any god or goddess but that doesn't mean I don't think it matters at all. The bible matters to me because it is foundational to our culture and western civilization. We should listen to it and ask ourselves, "Those people believed such and such, does that belief make sense to me? how does it fit with other human knowledge?" I asked the question about musical instruments because for years I wondered how did the church of christ denomination justify having microphones and air conditioning if they are against musical instruments and because I recently became acquainted with the adult bible curriculum from an independent church of christ in tallahassee florida, which rekindled my curiousity about churches of christ.

Cool. Then did I answer your question ok? Since most churches of Christ are independent, like the one you're talking about (mine is), I can't speak for every church of Christ. But those are some of the reasons behind non instrumental worship in my congregation. You should probably ask the church in Tallahassee what their reasons are, too. I would be interested to see how they compare.
 

Green Kepi

Active Member
keithnurse...since you place no stock in the Bible...have you every considered this (?)...when the early Christians were 'asked to leave the worship services' of the Jews (where instruments were used) and they started on the first day of the week...no musical instrument was used until introduced approximately some 600 years later. Now this seems odd, if it makes no difference. Being Jews and knowing how they were, I believe if it made no difference whether used or not, they'd have continued with those horns, drums, trumpets, cymbals, etc. Since they did not...someone must have taught them...things were to be done differently to please God. What do you think?
 
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