Murdered babies, Nayirah, and trust in government.

[an anarchist]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nayirah_testimony
Essential in turning U.S. public opinion in favor of the first gulf war was the Nayirah testimony. Nayirah testified before the US congressional human rights caucus. Speaking as a Kuwaiti citizen, she testified that Iraqi soldiers “took the babies out of incubators” and left them to die. This widely publicized testimony was used as a rationale for the invasion of Iraq by George Bush Sr. several times.
Later, it was found out that Nayirah was actually the daughter of the Kuwaiti ambassador to the U.S., and she was trained by a professional media company and prepped on her testimony. The whole thing was a deliberate farce to drum up support for a war.
My question is, how many times can the government do things like this and still retain our trust? We are lied to, are we not? How many “they took the babies out of incubators” stories are we going to believe?
Does the U.S. government not have a filthy track record when it comes to being honest to its citizens? Why do we trust our government has our best interests in mind. I’ll never understand I think.
With the Ukraine situation, when the governments tell us of massacres, at the very least we should view these reports from halfway across the world with a grain of salt. As unfortunate as that is, that is the reality. If the government wants a war, they will lie about atrocities to get it.

 

[F1fan]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nayirah_testimony
Essential in turning U.S. public opinion in favor of the first gulf war was the Nayirah testimony. Nayirah testified before the US congressional human rights caucus. Speaking as a Kuwaiti citizen, she testified that Iraqi soldiers “took the babies out of incubators” and left them to die. This widely publicized testimony was used as a rationale for the invasion of Iraq by George Bush Sr. several times.
Later, it was found out that Nayirah was actually the daughter of the Kuwaiti ambassador to the U.S., and she was trained by a professional media company and prepped on her testimony. The whole thing was a deliberate farce to drum up support for a war.
My question is, how many times can the government do things like this and still retain our trust? We are lied to, are we not? How many “they took the babies out of incubators” stories are we going to believe?
Does the U.S. government not have a filthy track record when it comes to being honest to its citizens? Why do we trust our government has our best interests in mind. I’ll never understand I think.
With the Ukraine situation, when the governments tell us of massacres, at the very least we should view these reports from halfway across the world with a grain of salt. As unfortunate as that is, that is the reality. If the government wants a war, they will lie about atrocities to get it.

You seem to be jumping to a conclusion here. The governments of the Gulf wars eras were known to be rather deceptive, from your link to yellow cake. There are many issues with that era of US government and national security and public opinion.

The Ukraine war is being covered by global media, and every reputable news organization nidation. Many of these reporters are risking their lives reporting from Ukraine and seeing things first hand. These reports aren't from governments nor filtered through governments. So your concern is unwarranted. What is happening in Ukraine by Russian forces includes many war crimes.

 

[an anarchist]

So your concern is unwarranted. What is happening in Ukraine by Russian forces includes many war crimes.

In this age of disinformation, I don’t think the concern is unwarranted. The Russians probably are committing many war crimes, that’s what is being told to me by the media.
I wouldn’t put it past the capability of the western governments to be able to craft a narrative to their advantage.

 

[F1fan]

In this age of disinformation, I don’t think the concern is unwarranted. The Russians probably are committing many war crimes, that’s what is being told to me by the media.
I wouldn’t put it past the capability of the western governments to be able to craft a narrative to their advantage.

There are reputable news outlets that take journalism and ethics seriously. And what governments say will not be related.

 

[Viker]

They use half-truths (still lying) such as this one in the OP. Iraq's forces cut power in Kuwait, what many modern invasion forces do. This by matter of fact cut power to hospitals. A story was drummed up to earn our sympathy. Same thing with WMD's. Saddam had and used WMD's before so it was a believable premise for the next fight.

 

[Estro Felino]

In a Court of criminal justice, the penal procedure clearly states that a testimony is to be measured according to their reliability.
A witness that changes version every five seconds, has zero reliability.


So...in this case...the US intelligence is as credible and reliable as the Flying Spaghetti Monster. With all due respect.

 

[Estro Felino]

You seem to be jumping to a conclusion here. The governments of the Gulf wars eras were known to be rather deceptive, from your link to yellow cake. There are many issues with that era of US government and national security and public opinion.
.

With all due respect. The US intelligence services are not "executive power". They are not elected by the citizens.
They are chosen within very exclusive and elitarian groups who do not change with the elections.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

In this age of disinformation, I don’t think the concern is unwarranted. The Russians probably are committing many war crimes, that’s what is being told to me by the media.
I wouldn’t put it past the capability of the western governments to be able to craft a narrative to their advantage.

The fact it's being consistently covered across the board, save for by Russia and China, it's not likely to be spins behind to drum up anti-Putin sentiments.

So...in this case...the US intelligence is as credible and reliable as the Flying Spaghetti Monster. With all due respect.

Do you have any idea on how much information US intelligence pulls in? To say they are as credible and reliable as the Flying Spaghetti Monster is about as valid as saying the Romans were godawful architects.

They are chosen within very exclusive and elitarian groups who do not change with the elections.

It's much lower than that, actually. This is how Edward Snowden, a contractor, was able to obtain and leak information. Chelsea Manning also wasn't high up in command, yet she too obtained and leaked information available to her.

 

[Estro Felino]

Do you have any idea on how much information US intelligence pulls in? To say they are as credible and reliable as the Flying Spaghetti Monster is about as valid as saying the Romans were godawful architects.

I am speaking of factual cases. As for Libya, I haven't understood yet the terrifying implications of the Benghazi murder. Not to mention the reason why the NATO had to intervene and to side with the fundamentalist rebels.
So...it does not deal with Iraq, only.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I am speaking of factual cases. As for Libya, I haven't understood yet the terrifying implications of the Benghazi murder. Not to mention the reason why the NATO had to intervene and to side with the fundamentalist rebels.
So...it does not deal with Iraq, only.

I get it based on my worldview. But based on your worldview, you get differently.

 

[Estro Felino]

I get it based on my worldview. But based on your worldview, you get differently.

I don't know your worldview, so if you cared to explain...

 

[Father Heathen]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nayirah_testimony
Essential in turning U.S. public opinion in favor of the first gulf war was the Nayirah testimony. Nayirah testified before the US congressional human rights caucus. Speaking as a Kuwaiti citizen, she testified that Iraqi soldiers “took the babies out of incubators” and left them to die. This widely publicized testimony was used as a rationale for the invasion of Iraq by George Bush Sr. several times.
Later, it was found out that Nayirah was actually the daughter of the Kuwaiti ambassador to the U.S., and she was trained by a professional media company and prepped on her testimony. The whole thing was a deliberate farce to drum up support for a war.
My question is, how many times can the government do things like this and still retain our trust? We are lied to, are we not? How many “they took the babies out of incubators” stories are we going to believe?
Does the U.S. government not have a filthy track record when it comes to being honest to its citizens? Why do we trust our government has our best interests in mind. I’ll never understand I think.
With the Ukraine situation, when the governments tell us of massacres, at the very least we should view these reports from halfway across the world with a grain of salt. As unfortunate as that is, that is the reality. If the government wants a war, they will lie about atrocities to get it.

Isn't most of it corroborated by multiple nations and outlets?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I don't know your worldview, so if you cared to explain...

You explain part of the world using what to me are conspiracies. I don't.

 

[Estro Felino]

You explain part of the world using what to me are conspiracies. I don't.

Because I am a jurist. In penal law, anything is a conspiracy.
If a procurator did not believe in conspiracies, he would not investigate anything and jails would be empty.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Because I am a jurist. In penal law, anything is a conspiracy.
If a procurator did not believe in conspiracies, he would not investigate anything and jails would be empty.

Yeah, but all motives are not the same and not all motives are criminal.

 

[Estro Felino]

Yeah, but all motives are not the same and not all motives are criminal.

It depends. To deceive an entire Nation in order to make war in a very far country is a criminal motive to me.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

It depends. To deceive an entire Nation in order to make war in a very far country is a criminal motive to me.

Yeah, but you haven't proved that it a deception beyond reasonable doubt. There are other motives that doesn't evolve deception.

 

[Estro Felino]

Yeah, but you haven't proved that it a deception beyond reasonable doubt. There are other motives that doesn't evolve deception.

Such as?

 

[Brickjectivity]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nayirah_testimony
Essential in turning U.S. public opinion in favor of the first gulf war was the Nayirah testimony. Nayirah testified before the US congressional human rights caucus. Speaking as a Kuwaiti citizen, she testified that Iraqi soldiers “took the babies out of incubators” and left them to die. This widely publicized testimony was used as a rationale for the invasion of Iraq by George Bush Sr. several times.
Later, it was found out that Nayirah was actually the daughter of the Kuwaiti ambassador to the U.S., and she was trained by a professional media company and prepped on her testimony. The whole thing was a deliberate farce to drum up support for a war.
My question is, how many times can the government do things like this and still retain our trust? We are lied to, are we not? How many “they took the babies out of incubators” stories are we going to believe?
Does the U.S. government not have a filthy track record when it comes to being honest to its citizens? Why do we trust our government has our best interests in mind. I’ll never understand I think.
With the Ukraine situation, when the governments tell us of massacres, at the very least we should view these reports from halfway across the world with a grain of salt. As unfortunate as that is, that is the reality. If the government wants a war, they will lie about atrocities to get it.

While I agree in the abstract, I personally know someone living in Ukraine who has had to flee from the country and is taking shelter in Poland. They are a real person who I have met face to face.

I absolutely agree that we cannot trust the government to be honest about foreign affairs. I don't know what to do about it except to get all of the dishonest people out of party politics, but I agree we cannot trust the government to tell us what is going on. Maybe sometimes we can trust the intentions of someone in government, but usually I cannot.

If the thread is about Ukraine, then I affirm on my honor that I do believe that Russia is attacking the country and has chased me acquaintance out of the country. Beyond that I do not know. That is one reason I am apposed to direct US intervention. I simply don't believe anything that they say.

Here is ancient advice for those in charge of any country: [Pro 29:12 NIV] 12 If a ruler listens to lies, all his officials become wicked. I find this to be true, generally. Its true of every one of my presidents or governors who prefers untruths. Its got nothing to do with whether their policies are wrong or even how stupid they are. If they don't want to hear the truth, then everyone who works for them either gets corrupted or leaves.