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Murder - the blood cries from the ground

Discussion in 'Current Events' started by Messianic Israelite, Jul 26, 2021.

  1. Messianic Israelite

    Messianic Israelite Active Member

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    So there's been another murder. I just saw this article about 10 minutes ago Teens Guilty Of Murdering Boy 'Lured' To Park And Fatally Stabbed - Bing News , but I was provoked to comment on a more general aspect of murder. This post is more of a knee-jerk reaction than anything else. When I read of the article I immediately thought of Genesis 9 which says:

    "And from each human being, too, I will demand an accounting for the life of another human being.
    6 “Whoever sheds human blood,
    by humans shall their blood be shed;
    for in the image of Elohim
    has Elohim made mankind."

    Those of you who are familiar with your Bible's will recall that when Abel was killed by Cain, his blood cried from the ground and Yahweh heard it (Genesis 4:10). This earth can be polluted with blood, but especially that of the innocent being killed. We as human beings have been given the right by Yahweh to administer the death penalty to those who have killed another innocent human being. This is justice because you cannot recover a person from death once he is killed. You have robbed that person of a life. His hopes, his dreams are now no more.

    Now I know I'm getting in to the subject of the death penalty and I know I am probably in the minority by saying that I believe in the death penalty, but I believe that this is justice.

    Anyway, in terms of this article I really am appalled. But we hear about so many murders nowadays. Why? Because people don't love. Yahshua instructed us to love our enemies. To be as wise as serpents and harmless as doves. In this news article, Oliver Stephens, 13, was pronounced dead at Bugs Bottom field in Emmer Green, Reading, on 3 January after being persuaded to go to the park by a 14-year-old girl, where he was "ambushed" by the two boys, Reading Crown Court heard. The trio had messaged on Snapchat in the days before the stabbing, and the older boy had written: "I actually hate the kid with a passion - if I was to see him right now I'd probably end up killing him."

    It takes my breath away that people can be so evil. I ask, when will Yahshua return to establish His Kingdom on this earth? If this isn't love growing cold as described in Matthew 24:12, I don't know what is. This world is growing colder and it's because the Bible has been thrown out on the garbage heap of the ages. And I know I may be ranting a bit here but if lawyers were insistent on finding the truth as the Bible teaches and trying the individuals according to the truth, wouldn't that be so much better than rather lawyers trying to find loopholes and ways to twist the facts to exonerate their clients. Get the truth, then try the perpetrators of the crime according to Yahweh's Law.

    Oliver's parents have lost a son. A son that died in such a cowardly way. Tricked by a 14-year old girl and ambushed by some low-lives who held a grudge. We're finding more and more examples of these type of murders. And unfortunately, the sentence against these people will no doubt be far undeserving than what the Biblical Law requires.
     
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  2. AlexanderG

    AlexanderG Active Member

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    We "hear about so many murders nowadays" because the news media are a vastly larger industry than ever before, and they know that coverage of tragic and horrific events brings in more clicks, more views, and more advertising revenue. If you look at the actual data, crime has gone down dramatically in recent decades and is unprecedentedly low compared to all of human history. This murder was terrible, yes, but overall we should rejoice to live in this age of human flourishing.

    When I read your comment, I thought about all of the people that Yaweh killed as recorded in the Bible. What of god's grudges, and god's hatred, and all the parents who lost their children because of his jealously and wrath? If your response to the murder in that new story is that "people can be so evil," then how do you think the rest of us view your god? Would you reply that he "has morally sufficient reasons" for killing others, or that "he has the power so it is his right"?

    What if I told you that these murderous teenagers had morally sufficient reasons according to their own moral laws, and that they clearly had the power to take another life and so they were righteous by definition?" Would that satisfy you, and assuage your concerns? No. And neither are we assuaged by such apologetics about Yaweh.

    The bible has nothing to offer here except different interpretations that can justify or condemn the same action, depending on the subjective perspective of the reader. It is no role model, but a Rorschach Test. Instead of worrying about what an old book says, why don't you learn from the wealth of all our human experience about what actions benefit us all and lead to a good life. Be good for good's sake. Be a wonderful person, and be responsible in your own affairs. Actions always speak louder than words, louder than judgment, and louder than hindsight.
     
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  3. Messianic Israelite

    Messianic Israelite Active Member

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    Hi AlexanderG. Good evening. Well, I don't have time to respond to everything you have said unfortunantly, and I would like to, but I will respond to the fact that you have expressed your belief that crime hasn't increased, but the media has made it seem that crime has increased. I don't know if you talk to any elderly people, your grandpa perhaps, or someone who is quite aged. I know of one person who used to tell me of the little crime in his area when he was young. Rare drug use. Rare murders. Rare thefts and so on. In those days, the media wasn't like it is today, but people talked much more. If there was a murder, everyone would know about through word of mouth. The media doesn't even report all crime, just the stories that they feel they should do so, such as in this story where a 14 year old is guilty of murder. Crime has gotten worse. It has gotten much worse. Every day there is some crime being committed. Has crime decreased, or is there a careful fudging of the statistics?
     
  4. AlexanderG

    AlexanderG Active Member

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    So your evidence that crime has in fact gotten worse, which supercedes all of the empirical data on crime reported by the people whose job it is to document crime occurrences, is that one person you know told you that he didn't hear about crime as much from local gossip when he was younger?

    Can you really not see that a single subjective anecdote is a terrible method to tell the difference between truth and falsehood, and a terrible way to reason? I guess maybe you can't, if you base your core beliefs on the gospels which are anonymous hearsay anecdotes. And now your mind is suffering from collateral damage; you've been taught that a fallacious form of reasoning is acceptable, so now you're applying this fallacy to other parts of your life and resultantly believe even more baseless or false things.

    Alright, then? I don't think our conversation is going to get anywhere. You apparently take it on faith that crime is getting worse, by which I mean you believe it based on your personal feelings in spite of a mountain of evidence directly to the contrary. Ok? I'm sorry you think your feelings trump objective reality, but I can't stop you.
     
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  5. halbhh

    halbhh The wonder and awe of "all things".

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    We cannot, but God can.
    And will.
     
  6. Stevicus

    Stevicus Veteran Member
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    The article mentioned that they had grievances with the boy, but didn't elaborate. It would be helpful to know what the dispute was about and why they felt the only solution was to kill him.
     
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  7. Kooky

    Kooky Freedom from Sanity

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    Isn't it strange how, in times when mass media wasn't omnipresent and the Internet didn't allow people to check news items from literally any place on Earth, people didn't hear as often about crimes from other areas of the country than they do nowadays?
     
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  8. danieldemol

    danieldemol Well-Known Member
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    No the administration of the death penalty where the offender can be safely isolated is not a human right.

    Vengeance based justice is deficient because it does nothing to bring the innocent back, because vengeance based justice itself has killed innocents for example in the US alone, 'A total of at least 185 people who were sentenced to death since 1972 have since been exonerated.[19][20]'

    Source: Capital punishment in the United States - Wikipedia

    In addition to that, the death sentence is deficient because it destroys an entire human being for the sake of what is possibly just a faulty part in the brain.

    Would you destroy your entire car because a part was faulty or would you try to have the fault rectified?
     
  9. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

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    When I read about injustice (like men raping others and murderers chopping heads off in name of God) then I won't object to the death penalty (feeling wise). But if they would appoint me to kill the murderer (e.g. choke him to dead or cut his throat), then I am pretty sure that I might not do it.

    Of course if I would have been married and had children and a serial rapist would rape my wife and kids and me, and I was given the opportunity to cut his balls off and a few other parts then I will not be surprised if I was able to do so. Of course it's very difficult to "know" what I would do, unless it happens, and I pray I never find out.

    In short: it's difficult for me to believe that death penalty is justice. IF the Law of karma is true then it might be creating another reaction in the future. And then it will never stop (the killing I mean). But I do understand that people choose for death penalty when some murders another

    Maybe the Bible was an upgrade. Before the Bible came people were killing without a good reason, so then "killing someone who killed another human" was a good upgrade. But maybe the next upgrade will be "do not kill, even if the other killed you".
     
  10. Stevicus

    Stevicus Veteran Member
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    Yes, although I probably would not have heard about the story in the OP if it had not been posted here. The local news sites usually have local crime, so I get that coverage when I browse the local sites for my area. Then I also look at the national headlines, usually UPI or AP - although I might just surf around and check other news sites.

    It was kind of the same before the internet. I would read two local papers daily (which would cover local crime), but then get national news from the national networks.

    That's sometimes a fair question, though, since national news networks don't treat all crimes the same. A few are deemed worthy of national coverage, while most others are not.
     
  11. Messianic Israelite

    Messianic Israelite Active Member

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    Hi AlexanderG. During the first two decades of the 20th century the police in England and Wales recorded an average of 90,000 indictable offences each year, a figure which increased to over 500,000 during the 1950s. The crime rate consequently quadrupled from 250 crimes per 100,000 people in 1901 to 1,000 by 1950. But the history of crime in the 20th century is dominated by the even sharper rise in offences recorded by the police since the late 1950s. During the 1960s there was acceleration in recorded crime: it was the only decade in the century where crime doubled. Crime continued to rise according to this measure for much of the remainder of the 20th century, with an average of over one million crimes recorded each year in the 1960s, increasing to two million during the 1970s, and 3.5m in the 1980s.

    I work in a care home for the mentally unwell and I love my job. We focus on service users and we try to help them by teaching them life skills and go out with them, doing various activities. But even in my job, there is one individual who we have to report to the police almost every week for her behavior. I know that they're not recording the damage, arson and other crimes she does in the general statistics of crime. It's brushed under the rug, and this is done with many cases. Why? I would suggest it's because the police want to make out that crime has reduced.

    Although it has been said that there is no simple answer as to why crime rates increased so markedly in the second half of the century, I would like to suggest that it is because the Bible has been eradicated from the lives of people. 2 Timothy 3 says: "3 But know this, that in the last days grievous times shall come. 2 For men shall be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, haughty, railers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 without natural affection, implacable, slanderers, without self-control, fierce, no lovers of good, 4 traitors, headstrong, puffed up, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of Yahweh; 5 holding a form of righteousness, but having denied the power thereof: from these also turn away. "

    Adhering to the Bible will produce righteousness. Today this world is permeated by drunkenness, disorder, pornography, adultery, murder and many other evils as recorded by the Bible.
     
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