Murder in Quran ??

[GURSIKH]

The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His apostle and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be exiled; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement, Except those who repent before you have them in your power; so know that Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. (Surah al-Mā’ida 5:33-34)

 

[Fatihah]

The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His apostle and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be exiled; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement, Except those who repent before you have them in your power; so know that Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. (Surah al-M?’ida 5:33-34)

Response: Nothing injust about self-defense.

 

[jamaesi]

Things can sound pretty scary when you read them out of context!

 

[zenzero]

Friend ting ling,

The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His apostle and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be exiled; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement, Except those who repent before you have them in your power; so know that Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. (Surah al-Mā’ida 5:33-34

Your opinion or interpretation, please?

Love & rgds

 

[Religionisus]

Hmmm.

 

[Religionisus]

The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His apostle and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be exiled; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement, Except those who repent before you have them in your power; so know that Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. (Surah al-Mā’ida 5:33-34)

Well actually, if you were to fight against God, you should be killed. Since God is holy, the only people who would fight against him must be EVIL.

 

[zenzero]

Friend Religionisus,

Well actually, if you were to fight against God, you should be killed. Since God is holy, the only people who would fight against him must be EVIL.

That could be your interpretation but personally find that good/bad, god/satan, light/darkness etc are dualistic and complementary. If there is day there has to be night otherwise it will not balance out.
Besides its only a perspective for some what is good may be bad for others.
Besides can you finsih darkness from existence? Can there be all day throughout?
Killing someone is not going to finish of the other side as one has to find that balance where one can see light and darkness equally and not affected by either.
Love & rgds

 

[GURSIKH]

Friend ting ling,



Your opinion or interpretation, please?

Love & rgds

,my opinion already posted ,

i can understand how shocking the above verse can be for a follower of Dharmic faith especially Budhism , Jainism (ZEN haha ) . ...


i too find this stuff a threat to world peace bcoz i think it can easily divert youth towards voilence and aggression towards other faiths !


just my opinion

 

[YmirGF]

Things can sound pretty scary when you read them out of context!

And quite delusional when read IN CONTEXT.

 

[Copernicus]

Things can sound pretty scary when you read them out of context!

Is there something in the context that mitigates murder, crucifixion, and amputation of body parts? If so, I'd like you to explain it to us.

 

[.lava]

The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His apostle and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be exiled; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement, Except those who repent before you have them in your power; so know that Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. (Surah al-Mā’ida 5:33-34)

for the record, verses don't mention "crucifying". it says "hang". correct my English if i am wrong but these two are not the same thing.

and for the rest...so? some satanic people would come over and fight againts people who try to inform people just to save them from hell. they stand in the way between happiness and humanity, of course they deserve punishment. trying to kill a messenger of God is equal trying to kill voice of God on Earth. this Earth and entire creation belongs to God and those verses are commands of God. they are just.





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[YmirGF]

for the record, verses don't mention "crucifying". it says "hang". correct my English if i am wrong but these two are not the same thing.

and for the rest...so? some satanic people would come over and fight againts people who try to inform people just to save them from hell. they stand in the way between happiness and humanity, of course they deserve punishment. trying to kill a messenger of God is equal trying to kill voice of God on Earth. this Earth and entire creation belongs to God and those verses are commands of God. they are just.

Isn't it interesting how something that was supposed to unite mankind only succeeded in creating deeper divisions?

 

[.lava]

Isn't it interesting how something that was supposed to unite mankind only succeeded in creating deeper divisions?

opposites make each other real. Islam is not against other beliefs, other paths...etc. but it does not leave us all powerless when we are attacked. yet there is one important point. killing someone out of hatred is always murderer. even in wars.

it is success of Satan to divide people in divisions. otherwise, why would someone should kill my family and my teacher? why would someone find it "disgusting" when we say we are all brothers and sisters? why would someone defend those who bring war on people? fighting against them is defending humanity against divisions.






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[YmirGF]

opposites make each other real. Islam is not against other beliefs, other paths...etc.

That is a bit of a misrepresentation, .lava and you know it. Islam is the only religion acceptable to Allah, by default that makes all other forms invalid. So it is not accurate to say that Islam is not against other beliefs, other paths, when clearly, it is. For the record, I have no real issue with Islam claiming its own superiority to all other beliefs systems, but to say Islam is not against those very belief systems is simply not accurate.

but it does not leave us all powerless when we are attacked. yet there is one important point. killing someone out of hatred is always murderer. even in wars.

Are you saying that killing with love is perfectly OK, then? What about when the actions of Muslim leaders precipitate attacks on them such as in Afghanistan under the Taliban?

it is success of Satan to divide people in divisions. otherwise, why would someone should kill my family and my teacher?

I don't know, ask the killers. I certainly wouldn't kill anyone, let alone your family or teacher.

why would someone find it "disgusting" when we say we are all brothers and sisters?

It's a neat idea, but it isn't especially realistic. Being in the same species isn't quite the same as being in the same family unit. I don't find the idea "disgusting" by any measure however.

why would someone defend those who bring war on people?

It would depend on which war. In WW2, Adolf Hitler gave us very good reasons to take up arms against him and the German people who were held under the thrall of his forces and ideology.

fighting against them is defending humanity against divisions.

It can be, .lava, but when these wars are religiously motivated that is where things come off the rails, in my opinion.

 

[.lava]

That is a bit of a misrepresentation, .lava and you know it. Islam is the only religion acceptable to Allah, by default that makes all other forms invalid. So it is not accurate to say that Islam is not against other beliefs, other paths, when clearly, it is. For the record, I have no real issue with Islam claiming its own superiority to all other beliefs systems, but to say Islam is not against those very belief systems is simply not accurate.

yes, no doubt Islam is the only religion before God and Islam means submission. a Christian could submit himself to God. that's why there are saints among Christians too. you, like many other people including some Muslims, believe that one must convert to Islam to survive himself from hell ( i know you do not believe in such a thing). one must turn to God. if a Christian submit to God, if a Jew submit to God, if a Muslim submit to God; they are on the same path. because religion of God has never changed and never will change. but there are several books. people of books might have different rituals. it is not a reason for division. those who happened to be reason for divisions, are those who don't want see all people of book live happily together.

Are you saying that killing with love is perfectly OK, then? What about when the actions of Muslim leaders precipitate attacks on them such as in Afghanistan under the Taliban?

many people say they believe in God but they rarely wish to reach God. people who wish to reach God are true believers. i am trying to speak from Qur'an which we follow. so please don't drag me into a unnecessary discussion about politics and power gaining worldly games.

if one must kill to survive, then he does. i do not see that as feeling love in killing. it has to be neutral state where you have no other choice to survive and protect those who depend on you.

I don't know, ask the killers. I certainly wouldn't kill anyone, let alone your family or teacher.

really? sorry but i do not believe what you're saying. you know, many kids were being kidnapped by organ mafia. what would you do if someone try to kidnap yours? i do not like the idea of killing either. but world is bizarre and some people do terrible things for money and power. i find it very weird to let them do whatever terrible things they want to do.

It's a neat idea, but it isn't especially realistic. Being in the same species isn't quite the same as being in the same family unit. I don't find the idea "disgusting" by any measure however.

there is one creation. every single human being is a creation of God. and God would not creat them if God did not love them to be.

It can be, .lava, but when these wars are religiously motivated that is where things come off the rails, in my opinion.

as i tried to exlain above, we are all creatures of one creator. if one believes in God and actually know God and religion good enough, then he would not start war. there is not religiously motivated war, never was. it could only be some ideology that created by man. it is not religion of God and it is not the one on the right path that starts war.

Allah knows the best





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[Copernicus]

for the record, verses don't mention "crucifying". it says "hang". correct my English if i am wrong but these two are not the same thing.

I suppose that it depends upon usage at the time the verb was used. In some languages, "hang" was a term for crucifixion.

and for the rest...so? some satanic people would come over and fight againts people who try to inform people just to save them from hell. they stand in the way between happiness and humanity, of course they deserve punishment...

Nonsense. Such people do not threaten you, and Allah is perfectly capable of meting out his own punishment without your help. This is just people using God as an excuse to commit atrocities against other people. If that isn't evil, then nothing is.

trying to kill a messenger of God is equal trying to kill voice of God on Earth. this Earth and entire creation belongs to God and those verses are commands of God. they are just.

Killing in self-defense is not immoral. If some self-appointed "messenger of God" tries to kill me, I am perfectly justified in trying to defend myself. Those verses strike me as insulting to any God that would like to be thought of as merciful, but I really doubt that the person who wrote those particular verses was divinely inspired.

 

[.lava]

I suppose that it depends upon usage at the time the verb was used. In some languages, "hang" was a term for crucifixion.

not in Qur'an. crucifixion do not exist in Qur'an.

Nonsense. Such people do not threaten you, and Allah is perfectly capable of meting out his own punishment without your help. This is just people using God as an excuse to commit atrocities against other people. If that isn't evil, then nothing is.

nobody's talking about attacking people out of blue. there have been wars, there are still wars. if some nation attacks yours to kill, gain power and take over, i am sorry but a real man would defend his people. if you expect God to interfere every single thing, then you expect no exam on Earth. this place is for examination. can you put your life before others safety or not? would you follow commands of God or would you find your own intellect better than highest intellect? all matter of exams. there is nothing evil about giving people chance to repent or die. many nations today do kill criminals and none would offer forgiveness in case criminal repents.

Killing in self-defense is not immoral. If some self-appointed "messenger of God" tries to kill me, I am perfectly justified in trying to defend myself. Those verses strike me as insulting to any God that would like to be thought of as merciful, but I really doubt that the person who wrote those particular verses was divinely inspired.

why would a messenger try to kill you? it is not possible. never happened, never will happen. because it is against law of God.





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[Copernicus]

not in Qur'an. crucifixion do not exist in Qur'an.

Again, it depends on the usage of words that Arabic speakers used at the time the verse was written. Did they use the word "hang" to describe the crucifixion punishment that Romans used?

nobody's talking about attacking people out of blue. there have been wars, there are still wars. if some nation attacks yours to kill, gain power and take over, i am sorry but a real man would defend his people...

Perhaps, but that verse seems to speak of internal enemies. Otherwise, what kind of punishment would "exile" be? And it prescribes punishment that can only be carried out after the so-called attacker or "mischief-maker" has been rendered harmless by authorities. So it prescribes treatment of prisoners that modern societies tend to view as cruel and inhumane.

if you expect God to interfere every single thing, then you expect no exam on Earth

Isn't God supposed to be able to handle that level of activity? After all, omnipotent beings do not get frustrated or exhausted in the same way that we weaker beings do. As for being examined, I would expect an omniscient being to know people's worth and worthiness without having to conduct experiments. You seem to be saying that God doesn't know outcomes until he conducts examinations.

...can you put your life before others safety or not? would you follow commands of God or would you find your own intellect better than highest intellect?

How does one know what the commands of God are? Lots of people seem to have conflicting opinions on the matter, and I am certainly not inspired by words that were written centuries ago by people who had a lesser understanding of the world than we do in modern times.

there is nothing evil about giving people chance to repent or die.

I agree up to the point where you said "or die". Killing people who pose no threat to you is evil.

...many nations today do kill criminals and none would offer forgiveness in case criminal repents.

I believe that most death penalties get carried out regardless of whether the accused repents. In the US they certainly are, and we have documented cases of innocent people who have been killed by the legal system. What you prescribe here is simply immoral and uncivilized behavior.

why would a messenger try to kill you? it is not possible. never happened, never will happen. because it is against law of God.

Nonsense. Self-appointed messengers of God have found ways to kill and torture victims before, and they will certainly do it again.

 

[.lava]

Copernicus, there are many things you do not know about Qur'an. forgive me for saying this but things you say prove it. Qur'an is not as simple as you know it. if it was then all the Muslim people would be following the right path. so if you really expect to understand religion of God by reading Qur'an, you would only be understanding what your mind reflects, you'd be understanding yourself, not God. i can still bring you some verses to explain some stuff, but again you'd be understanding nothing. there are thousands of verses and not all of them talk about everyone. there are levels.





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[Copernicus]

Copernicus, there are many things you do not know about Qur'an. forgive me for saying this but things you say prove it. Qur'an is not as simple as you know it. if it was then all the Muslim people would be following the right path. so if you really expect to understand religion of God by reading Qur'an, you would only be understanding what your mind reflects, you'd be understanding yourself, not God. i can still bring you some verses to explain some stuff, but again you'd be understanding nothing. there are thousands of verses and not all of them talk about everyone. there are levels.

.lava, exactly the same thing has been said to me about the Christian Bible, but Christians, like Muslims, can have strong disagreements amongst themselves over how to interpret their own scripture. The fact is that you cannot be sure that even you have a complete understanding of the Quran, nor can you "prove" your interpretation in the same sense that you require proof from others. The interpretation of scripture is often less about what the original meaning and intent was than in how to reconcile the wording with the modern realities of life. My opinion is that you would understand those realities better if you did not try to filter them through the verses of an ancient book that was written by men with far less understanding of their world than you or I now possess.